Anti-psychiatry Forum I will withdraw.

Budimir Zdravkovic	I will withdraw. 16 Years Ago Listen both of us brought up some interesting points. We can go in circles all day, you obviously feel strong about one thing, I feel strong about something else. The discussion we had was fun but I don't wanna cluster your group. Thank you for letting me participate, on some parts we agree on other parts we can agree to disagree and not push views on one another.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago You can stay if you like or you can go, that will be your choice as it is for all that are here, I hold no prisoners. Thank you for being here. Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic Listen both of us brought up some interesting points. We can go in circles all day, you obviously feel strong about one thing, I feel strong about something else. The discussion we had was fun but I don't wanna cluster your group. Thank you for letting me participate, on some parts we agree on other parts we can agree to disagree and not push views on one another.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Well I don't wanna be a jackass, I respect your group and I respect your opinions. You allowed me to join and state my case. That's enough for me.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Your not a jackass and now you have made me feel bad, I know you are gone, but I will send this to you anyways. I don't want to ever make anyone feel like a jackass and if I did I apologize. I feel bad for it. I will send this to you privately and ask you to come back. Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic Well I don't wanna be a jackass, I respect your group and I respect your opinions. You allowed me to join and state my case. That's enough for me.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago You came back, thank you and I hope that we can be friends.
Carol Maric	[no subject] 16 Years Ago We all joined for our own subjective reasons. ::smile:: Thank you for the venue.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago I am glad that we are all here we do need to talk about this it is important and I thank you for being here. Quote: Originally posted by Carol Maric - Being: The Obsession, Continued . . . A Raging Epidemic ! We all joined for our own subjective reasons. ::smile:: Thank you for the venue.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Yes I came back. Thank you for inviting me back. I will contribute to discussion but I woll also let other people have leeway and just tone down with the aggression. I tend to get heated in a debated and I tend to enjoy a good debate and people see that as rudeness sometimes.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Me too, I see it as passionate, let yourself hang out, I may just set you free? What do you think about that, I am not shy no one has ever accused me of that being brave and foolish maybe at times? We will see, but I will be truthful as I know how to be no matter what my integrity is important to me for lots of reasons. Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic Yes I came back. Thank you for inviting me back. I will contribute to discussion but I woll also let other people have leeway and just tone down with the aggression. I tend to get heated in a debated and I tend to enjoy a good debate and people see that as rudeness sometimes.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago You are not gonna do it with the Hunger Strike Questions that's for sure. ::biggrin::

Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Why? What do you want or need from this group? What can I do to make you see that these questions are vital? They can't answer them, they never have and I have asked for the answers for 3 years as often and as much as I could. Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic You are not gonna do it with the Hunger Strike Questions that's for sure. ::biggrin::
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago They just aren't feasible questions that's why no one can answer them. It's like me asking you to partition the entire human population into good people and evil people. You know it's more complicated than that. You said it yourself things are conditional and changing.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Facts are not conditional and changing, oppinions and ideaas and thoughts and environmental and social issues are. Real diseases are not conditional and changing in diagnoses and treatments, they can answer the questions that people ask them of this nature about actual disease conditions: how they know it is this disease and not that disease (you don't get 12 different oppinions about the same thing depending on who is giving it to you in the majority of instances), the can give you the name of the exact test they used to come up with the diagnoses the accuracy of it the flaws in it and why they ruled others out or not, they know what the treatment is that cures or prevents the disease and if they have a problem with that they tell you specifically what and why and are honest and ethical they don't expect that you won't be able to understand or will just ignore it or deny it if they do, they can show you in some way what the markers are that they used to identify the exact disease, they make sure that you are truly informed about the risk and benefits of the so called treatments, and so must psychiatry be able to do these things. They must answer these hunger strike questions, if they can't they have no scientifically valid and reliable evidence, all they have is subjective or personal oppinions and that is not good enough. Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic They just aren't feasible questions that's why no one can answer them. It's like me asking you to partition the entire human population into good people and evil people. You know it's more complicated than that. You said it yourself things are conditional and changing.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Well i can't claim I am an expert in psychiatry so I can't tell you. Maybe you are right but I am not about to take it as given because you see, I know how complicated science can get. It can seem very reliable one moment and then the whole theory collapses the next because of changing conditions. It doesn't mean the theory was wrong. it was right but only under certain conditions. I am not saying this is so, you probably studied this more than me. But maybe, just maybe it might be the same cases the mental diseases. They may manifest under conditions and they may not, It doesn't mean the disease is not there.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic Well i can't claim I am an expert in psychiatry so I can't tell you. (janie) they make this claim and claim that they are the experts and yet they can not do the simplest task themselves which is to answer these questions for anyone in any specific ways because there are so many different theories and all the theories conflict themselves and so does the research and the answers that they give show minimal parts of what they claim and say it is conclusive, so the quackery runs amok Maybe you are right but I am not about to take it as given because you see, I know how complicated science can get. (Janie) I have never asked anyone to take it as a given the questions are freely available to be asked and have answered by these people by anyone, and then if you can get these answers and give them to me I will look at them or if I don't understand them have someone else look at them for me and give then give the answers that I get back to you. You see you can ask to have these answered just as well as me and no one can answer them for you and that is what is called taking it all for granted, these are valid questions to ask and it is in your best interest as a "scientist" to ask them these questions and get the answers to them, then you can tell the public or have them to tell the public the truth that is all we ask It can seem very reliable one moment and then the whole theory collapses the next because of changing conditions. (janie) You are mixing hypothetical with true and validly reliable and that is two different things you are mixing what might happen or what might seem to be true with what is actually known and that is two different things, but if you want to believe that the moon is made with green cheese then you can believe whatever you choose to believe and call it scientific if you want to. That still does not make it accurate and conclusive non biased science and when they say that it is they are lying out their teeth. It doesn't mean the theory was wrong. it was right but only under certain conditions. (janie) No it means that the theory was wrong and that the conditions may or may not be reproducible, but that they had no conclusive evidence. It takes an ethical person to admit when they are wrong or take on the risk of malpractice when they are wrong and won't admit it and they don't want to take on that risk. I asked you to get the answers to the questions and you have already told me that you can't and they can't either so who can? With a billion dollar budget some of them should be able to do this. I am not saying this is so, you probably studied this more than me. But maybe, just maybe it might be the same cases the mental diseases. (janie) There are no "mental disease" that can be shown to be true and valid diseasese, there are a few true and valid brain diseases they are different, and without the answers to these questions there is no basis for this treatment They may manifest under conditions and they may not, It doesn't mean the disease is not there. (janie) You are mixing up apples and oranges here, if there is no actual disease that can be shown or proved with any valid and reliable scientific evidence there is no disease, you must answer or get theses questions answered for me and then we will consider this more if you like? You have already admitted several times that this can not be done.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Look here, if I have Viral spinal menengitis a brain disease and I get the same exact treatment that the next person does in the majority of cases it will go away just the same no matter what the conditions I live with are, in many cases severe forms of epilepsy will react pretty much the same to the same medications in most people over time as well. Same as with any other disease, diabetes if I get the insulin I will not deteriorate so that my legs are getting cut off, same as heart disease and others, those do not depend on if I am married or getting a divorce, all of my children are doing fine or one of them has just died, or I have enough money to live on or not, or I own my own home or keep getting kicked out of rentals, those things are irrelevant to the true and actual diagnoses of any actual disease and its treatment. Not the same with this so called mental illness it is all based on purely subjective he said she said information that may or may not have been written down some place and changes with situations and over time even if every person's diagnoses and treatment are just the exact same.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Okay well since you are telling me that I am full of lies and I believe lies. Please disprove to me the following mechanisms, tell me the series of reactions that occur in the Krebs cycle and glycolysis. Tell me the series of mechanisms possible: eliminations(dehydrations), aromatic acid base reactions, substitutions(double bond collapse), decarboxylations and so forth. Show me some calculations that under certain conditions the reactions will occur under other conditions they won't, give me equilibrium values under changing conditions, statistical mechanics and thermodynamic values. Also tell my why we can predict exactly how these reactions progress under certain conditions since I seem to believe the moon is cheese.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Everything i mentioned above is very hypothetical yet valid.
Budimir Zdravkovic	[no subject] 16 Years Ago And how can you say a disease can either exist or not exist? That is completely false, ask any doctor. Look at diabetic for god sakes he is perfectly healthy until he eats a large quantity of sugar.
Janie Lee	[no subject] 16 Years Ago You explain this more, cite your resources so that I can look at it, I don't have the time to look it up and it is up your ally so give me the information right here and I will show you what I know about it? You show me the evidence that you have first. Explain this to me in scientific and laymens terms and I will be back later. Quote: Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic Okay well since you are telling me that I am full of lies and I believe lies. Please disprove to me the following mechanisms, tell me the series of reactions that occur in the Krebs cycle and glycolysis. Tell me the series of mechanisms possible: eliminations(dehydrations), aromatic acid base reactions, substitutions(double bond collapse), decarboxylations and so forth. Show me some calculations that under certain conditions the reactions will occur under other conditions they won't, give me equilibrium values under changing conditions, statistical mechanics and thermodynamic values. Also tell my why we can predict exactly how these reactions progress under certain conditions since I seem to believe the moon is cheese.