WHO’S THE BULLY NOW?

I have been musing on an issue...

The word bully did not exist when I was growing up. The concept was around I’m sure; anywhere there are kids (or adults for that matter) there’s bound to be a hierarchy forming, and a top-dog rising… Part of human nature, one would assume.

I’ve been a victim of many things but bullied as a youngster - no. Sure there were the usual cliques; the ‘in’ girls, the ‘bad’ boys, the ‘nerds’ and so forth. Then again those were the days when as a girl you kept away from certain areas, such as the boy’s lockers on the ground floor outside the cookery room - a gauntlet you ran through, risking any amount of teenage-boy hand groping…

Today, all those young boys would probably be in therapy or on some mind-altering medication or kicked around schools were they to attempt similar behaviors. Back then we just got on with it. It was part of school-life. Some of those boys went on to become great people, sportsmen, academics, business executives. The girls - none of us suffered any permanent psychological ‘damage’. Today we’d probably be in therapy too I guess…

I was bullied as an adult. By other adults. Social Media has its benefits but has also given rise to the ‘keyboard-warriors’. I quit all Social Media several years ago and it has been a blissful time since.

I also taught my boys to use words; use language to overcome the new ‘bullying’ trend, on and off-line. I showed them the magical power of the word “And?” as a response to any insult flung their way. There is no come-back to this single word. One can say it as a response over and over and the ‘bully’ sooner or later runs out of insults. Quite fun to watch actually.

When I arrived on here about a month ago, I noticed a couple of things: Everyone was so nice! All the reviews - however ‘bad’ the piece of writing was - were positive, feel-good accolades. There were moments when I wondered if I’d somehow found my way into a Mutual Admiration Society disguised as a writer’s hang-out.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for positivity and not tearing people down. But there was a level of discomfort; I was sensing that this mutual admiration was destructive rather than constructive, especially for the young and those of all ages just embarking on the great writing journey. I wrote a piece on mediocrity a while back, and yeah, I was feeling as though all this niceness everywhere was promoting and supporting this mediocrity.

How is a new writer to explore, expand, perfect, if their every offering is accompanied by gushing admiration from the readers? One learns any craft through correcting mistakes. We call ‘Masters’ those few who have perfected their craft; over a long period of time and after undergoing any amount of ‘botched’ and ‘butchered’ attempts. Usually the public never sees those, they see the perfected craft, the ‘Masterpieces’.

In this new world of computers and internet and instant connectivity, sites such as these have emerged. On the surface, they seem great - you are afforded the freedom to share your work, to expose it to the world by a mere click of a button. Everyone is a writer; everyone suddenly has the ability and the opportunity to ‘get out there’, mix with like-minded people, exchange offerings.

Problem is, these offerings are often the botched and butchered first attempts, the ones the world once never saw. None of us here are ‘Masters’, else we’d be sitting comfy in some place like L.A., sipping a martini poolside, watching the royalties pour in.

I have come across example after example of extremely poor work, cringe-worthy work. I have scrolled down and read bullshit after bullshit review, others seeing greatness where there is none, lauding a creativity that is non-existent. I have seen the creators of these botched pieces respond with “Awww…” and “:)” and any amount of feel good acronyms.

Everyone gets rewarded for encouraging this mediocrity. The writers, given time are awarded a little gold star, like in school. The reviewers in turn, given time, are awarded their own little thingy.

I’ve got a little gold star. Here’s the problem: Is it real? Am I to believe from this that my work merits it? In an environment where EVERYONE is lauded and where reviews have to be over a certain percentage (95% or higher!) to earn the top reviewer thingy, how good is my work REALLY?

Not everyone belongs to this society. I’ve met a few in my brief time here who dare to openly criticize and offer genuine feedback. Some do it nicely, some are quite brash and ‘in your face’ and some like me, work with new writers behind the scenes, when we spy raw talent and a willingness to work, to evolve.

What I am finding interesting is how people react to outright criticism, to the brashness of a few who say it as they see it. If it is crap, they call it crap. If it needs work, they say it needs work. Somehow, these people are perceived as ‘bullies’; and are hounded down, crushed, bullied so much that this dissuades others from openly speaking their mind. In the end they get banned from the site. The status-quo of mediocrity and feel-good brotherhood is thus maintained.

I have to question here, who the real bullies are. Are they the people who believe in truth and in honest opinion and in their right to voice this opinion on the premise that they are helping? Or are they the emergent warriors, quickly rising to defend the ‘hapless victims’ of this honesty? Their excuse sits on the premise that a bad review i.e. a negative review is unwelcome here, as this is a nurturing, supportive environment.

My argument is that these warriors who spew out bullish and despicable words in defense of mediocrity ought not to emerge. Life is tough. Young people and new writers need to learn how to defend themselves, how to take in criticism in whatever form it arrives and learn from it. On their own. This builds resilience and generates the need/desire to improve, perfect their craft. 

It is partly the fault of this site, the giving out of all these little thingies on your profile others see and aspire to gain. I have three now, and I don’t ‘trust’ any of them. I’m getting a fourth one soon, that of ‘top reviewer’. Honestly? I only review work I feel merits my positive review. The botched and butchered pieces I leave alone, as I cannot award them low points or speak sincerely. (More on this later.) So this new thingy coming my way soon is probably the only one I merit, but it too sits on falsity, because I have been selective in the work I review.

The past few days, my news-feed has been full of a mix of mutual-admiration and atrocious bullying. Quite innocently, I stumbled into a situation where the warriors were on the attack. Defending ‘hapless’ women (including myself) and others who have fallen prey to ‘honesty’. I’m far from hapless and certainly not in need of any male(s) coming to my rescue.

I took the criticism aimed my way and turned it into word-play, a glib banter. I rather enjoyed it. Then again I am older and perhaps significantly more resilient than some of the budding writers on here. Regardless, what I was reading - I can only say it took a great amount of self-control not to engage.

In hind-sight, I should have engaged, thus this piece. See, I was surrounded by all this admiration I almost fell victim to the mediocrity. I almost joined the ‘Society’, fearing a back-lash, fearing my being banned from this place which despite its issues, still attracts me, still inspires me.

I fear for the new generation overall. I fear for young/new writers the most. I say to you now, openly ask for criticism. Never accept praise or feel-good accolades on face-value. Fight. Get out of the cocoon of niceness and political correctness and see your work for what it is. Early, botched attempts at a craft many spend a lifetime perfecting and even then, find they have run out of time.

To reviewers and seasoned writers, I say cut the bullshit. Forget that little thingy pushing you to reward where reward is not merited. Help young talent openly or behind the scenes but HELP them. Don’t fear speaking the truth. Truth is good. Criticism is good. Praise is good, when it is merited.

Do any of you honestly KNOW how good your craft is? Do you believe the false niceties and accolades? Is there a part of you- like there is in me - which questions the validity of every ‘review’ you receive? There should be.

Here’s the thing: I had a very early poem sitting unnoticed under the title ‘Spring 2012’. Uninspiring title, right - but that was how I headed all my work on notebooks when I was writing out and about.

What did I do? I changed the title. Suddenly it became the best thing since sliced bread. It got more reviews than any of my other pieces - some of which are far superior. It became a wagon everyone jumped on and gloriously lauded, trying to outdo each other in praise. My somewhat cynical mind watched with amusement. A background in Sales and Marketing comes in handy sometimes…

I played the game, responding with profuse thanks and appreciation in turn. It’s a game. Give nice, receive nice. Do it often enough and you start to believe it’s real. Your work is that good! Is it? Your review is honest and free from the pressure to conform and speak within the PC guidelines! Is it?

Author's Note

I am really not looking for reviews here. I am looking for honest and open discussion. Am I wrong? Prove it. Am I right? Prove it.

Reviews

[Aurafiex]

Well, I've personally never gotten above 95%. That said, I do believe that honest and constructive criticism is vital to improving as a writer, be it as a hobby or aspiration.

But you're right, a lot of comments are just praise and circle jerking. In a way this site is kind of like a massive hugbox. While I do enjoy such comments (its nice to have your ego stroked), I personally prefer comments on what can be improved.

[Elise Anton]

Thanks for sharing your honest opinion Auraflex. 'Massive hugbox." Wish I'd had the nous to say it this way! What a great and yes, apt description! See, I'd perhaps never have heard this brilliant word if I hadn't written what I wrote...

The magic of word-play... Thank you.

[Aurafiex]

That said, I still feel like you don't have to be rude nor abusive when giving a constructive review. Mainly comments on the grammar or general flow of the story, or parts you have trouble going through along with parts that went smoothly.

And yeah, hugboxes! They're the new hot thing with the rise of Safe Spaces, Social Justice and whathaveyou.

[Elise Anton]

Really? Like my sons say, "Mum, you need to get out more."

Disappointed that the word is part of the new 'save me from the big bad world' whathaveyou...

Absolutely right about the review process. What you described is me. (Not the abusive/rude part bit)

[Davidgeo]

"....kind of like a massive hugbox" that's outstanding. Ha..

[Elise Anton]

Isn't it just? Never heard the phrase before, but yeah, outstanding!

[TheMalady]

Well, you're right however, reviews don't need to be that harsh especially when it comes to reviewing a "bad" piece. Yes, one must be open-minded when someone criticizes your work in such a manner that will make you quit writing. When reviewing, it doesn't solely focus on the negative aspect. What do you intend to do with helping the writer? Encourage him/her. Yes, not everyone of us writes well. I've read some reviews, especially for ones who almost contained discouragement. Do you think you've been helpful to the person?

We need to to review in a balance way. I guess there are some who aren't doing this kind of approach. Yes, there are some who praise a lot. Though, you can't just easily justify their acts.

People who joined here have their different reasons. I guess some might be offended by some of the words you've written however, it's true. Whether we like or hate what we read, it is the truth. It won't change anything, except if you change your way. People will not easily accept the criticisms of others, especially if it's negative. Yes, we may be open-minded however, you cannot deny how you're offended. Pain is essential for learning though, do you think that's always effective?

One must be sensitive. You can't just easily say "stop this crap", one must try to explain it that the writer understands. What I mean is, try to expand your point. Just like in a debate, one must point out the pros and cons, not just tell the writer to quit the story. I believe everyone has a potential to learn. We learn from our mistakes and our first time doesn't always need to be harsh that would leave a trauma in our beings.

Bullying is bad - yes. I love how you taught your kids to respond to the bullies the "and" thingy. Yes, it really is refreshing and fun.

I know you just want the writers, like me to fight for our work. You want us to see the effects of too much praising since it doesn't seem to point out the flaws of our work. And I'm really glad for this writing. It really is informative and it elicits opinions and discussions from others. :)

Yes, Life is a struggle but, do we really need to be harsh when it comes to our reviews? I say, we do it in a balance way. Also, we don't share the same writings styles that others might find it odd or weak. When one reviews, I guess we must consider these possibilities. We must think twice before we speak the "bad" criticism. Instead of saying straight off to the face of the writer that he/she has a lame writing style, bad grammar, etc... why don't we help him/her in a positive way? Yes, point out the flaws however, let us think that not everyone here are good. To be honest, I am not a good writer since I've had some grammatical errors and I'm working out on my style and yes, I need and honest feedback however negative it is but, I would be honest with you that you do that in a positive way: make the tone of your words respectful that I will not have the impression that you're just completely looking at the negative side and not both.

All in all, I do not find this offensive. For me, this is an eye-opener for all of us. Some may find this offensive but I say to you that I don't. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I really find it helpful. Thanks! :)

[Elise Anton]

Thanks for stopping by and adding your opinion. I appreciate the fact you acknowledge that there are flaws and that young people especially need to receive honest feedback, in a balanced way. I think what has 'offended' people overall is the word 'criticism'. We accept the word critic, but criticism which also means assessment, comment, opinion, review... has somehow gained a negative connotation...

Whenever I am asked to read something I do so honestly. I point out grammatical errors, sentences/words that may be misspelled or not used correctly, sometimes I question whether a particular word/sentence 'feels' right... I always add the disclaimer accept, reject, tell me to shut up. If the writing is good, I say WHY it is good. If anyone bothered to read my reviews they would see that I am in no way a bully.

Some others may be. Everyone has a different style. I cannot speak for them. Nor however can they speak for me.

I've had my share of criticism too. I am not everyone's cup of tea nor do I ever expect to be. Where the criticism has merit, I study it, apply it to my writing and if I believe it is right, I accept it. There are far better writers than me out there. I like to learn.

If the criticism is harsh and in my opinion unjust, I look at my work again and carefully point out the reasons why I do not agree.

I am glad you understood the overall problem. I think I've stated enough that at 17 my own work was terrible. I wish I'd had this vast resource within which I could receive advice and perfect it. The only critic I had was myself and as they point out, sometimes your self is your own worst critic lol.

Writing is a craft like any other. It needs time and effort. Technology has added many advantages, such as word-processing and other tools. Dictionaries, thesauruses (I just had to pause and check the plural of thesaurus see) and writing help-sites are at the touch of a button. Some writers use these tools, some choose not too for any amount of reasons. If their work is full of easily fixed errors then they need to be pointed out, as these detract from the overall quality of the work. Some people - yeah, I'll say it - are just plain lazy, or they've cruised through a system where it has been acceptable and thus feel offended when this is pointed out. It is not offensive. It means someone took the time to read your work, liked it but was distracted by the many easily fixable little errors. This is neither harsh nor does it constitute bullying. I hope you understand the point I am trying to make.

Sometimes, if the situation warrants it, I use the odd swear-word in my work. I never use improper words when reviewing others' work though. There's a time and a place for everything...

I do most of my editing/reviewing behind the scenes (when I am asked to help with adjusting/re-writing something). I work with several young people at any one time. I always ask for my name not to be mentioned during these situations. I do it because I honestly want to give back.

I hope I have clarified some things for you. I focussed on your main concern, and understood the issues that present as a problem to you. Feel free to run anything by me whether publicly or privately.

Thanks again for giving me and everyone else your honest opinion.

[TheMalady]

Thanks a lot. You're really helpful. I guess not everyone can be as honest and expressive as you when it comes to this issue. Yes. It i rather frustrating but, I realized that we really need to be mature with how we view the criticisms of others. We must accept it and try to be open on both sides of the coin. Thanks a lot! BTW, can I ask for your honest review of my work though it would be in the future. What I need are honest critics. :) People who will not hesitate to point out your flaws. I'll be requesting a read request if it's okay with you? Thanks! :)

[Elise Anton]

Anytime. Privately or publicly, I always read :)

[TheMalady]

Thanks again. Right now, technology really is helpful but it is only a means. You yourself must improve and not solely rely on these artificial intelligence. I always try it a point to learn from my mistakes through reading a lot of books. I want to harness my capability overcome my own flaws. What is good about this site is that you are able to grow from the reviews of others. I must say that there are some who review for the sense of perhaps, earning some points? (or simply they just want to comment?) I can't say for sure however, I guess it's nice that they are able to read our work by popular demand. This is just a hypothesis and I really don't want to generalize everyone here since, I know it isn't entirely true. There are some who are in fear to be viewed as a "nega". Well, there are a lot of possibilities.

All I can say, we really need to learn to proof read our own work. We mustn't solely rely on the opinions and reviews of others. They are only guides. We are the ones who write our own story. Sometimes, I've noticed that some would review and give comments that are actually not entirely true. haha, I've experienced that and I know that I must really evaluate the reviews of other people. We need to know that there are some things that we know that others don't know.

I will contact you personally. I have two books and I am planning on revising them. I have some problems with my tenses, you see. I love your discussion in regards to this topic. I hope that the people who will read this will try to think twice before lashing out some not-so good criticisms. :)

[Elise Anton]

I look forward to it. Again, valid points regarding taking ownership of and pride in your work. It's not that difficult to correct spelling/punctuation with all the tools available today. When I see someone who has taken care - hey I too fall victim of being too close to spot some mistakes - I feel proud of them, if that makes sense?

[TheMalady]

haha, absolutely! That's already helpful! I am always doing that to my reviews and however long the story is, I don't just scan it and make some "nice" comments. I make it a point to be detailed if possible. Really, although you can't spot any misgivings or mistakes in the work of the writer and spotted a minimal error such as the spelling, it really is already helpful for the writer. I've had the same experience. It is an accomplishment however small. :)

[Robert Parlange]

I'm not sure why you're on this website but I came here to learn how to be a professional writer. I post work here then move on. I couldn’t care less about the badges and I turned that rating system off a long time ago. The badge system is to act as an incentive to be active on the website. Which I am. I generally give positive reviews for, as I wrote in the profile, we should be encouraging each other here. If I can't find something positive to write about someone's work, I don't make any comments at all.

Last week I told a young man that he should probably be working on short stories instead of the many “novels” he began and abandoned. He didn't receive that well. Hey, that's how it goes. I could have told him the truth, that he is a terrible writer and will probably never achieve any of his goals. But hey, I don't know that. He may become a great writer one day because he never quit. This is not the time to discourage people. I am not the absolute authority on anyone's writing and I don't pretend to be.

Miss Stuitje feels some appreciation towards me because I gave her a very positive review. She has written, in my opinion, one of the best short stories I've read on this site. And I told her so. She has the same goals I do and we have worked out an arrangement to review each other's work privately.

Judging from what went on your page today, I may try to do the same with other writers I've befriended on this website. At least it will be more professional and there won't be any obnoxious trolls.

I have given long critiques about other peoples work, at their request, and have had it thrown back in my face. Basically, you can't win here.

So read my stuff if you like, but from the tone of this page and what went down today, I don't think you are going to be very objective.

Oh, by the way, I can handle criticism. I have two college degrees and have had my share of snotty English professors. I also have many rejection letters from magazines so I know what real editors can do to your ego. And still I haven't quit.

[Elise Anton]

Hi Robert. Firstly thank you for disabling the reply thingy and allowing me to respond directly. I read your comment twice, and carefully on each occasion so as to give it the response it merits.

"I'm not sure why you're on this website..." I have been here about a month now. During this month, I have uploaded previously 'unpublished work', meaning work I had not shared in any public forum. Lots of it. I have also during this period felt inspired and created some new work. Added to this, I have reviewed my fair share of others' work and have helped writers both publicly and privately, whenever my help was sought. In a nutshell, I have acted similarly to everyone else on this site. I hope this clears the rather strange opening statement?

"If I can't find something positive to write about someone's work, I don't make any comments at all." We tend to agree on this as you may have noticed in the piece you are commenting on. Perhaps our motivations differ but yes, I also tend largely towards the same behaviour.

"I am not the absolute authority on anyone's writing and I don't pretend to be." You offered this up after using the example of the young man. Again, I agree to an extent. I have been blocked and ridiculed because I have dared voice my opinion a few times - this only because the work itself was not too bad - and I felt some technical (grammar/punctuation stuff) might enhance it further.
I am sensing a tone in this statement however and please forgive me if I am wrong. I certainly do not consider myself an expert and I do hope I am not giving out this perception - if I am, it is honestly unintentional. I do have some proficiency in grammar/punctuation/sentence structure and so forth. Maybe the result of reading thousands of books, maybe the result of finding myself transplanted from the country of my birth at nine and a half and thrust into a new world, where I had to learn the language quickly in order to be moved into mainstream classrooms...
“Judging from what went on your page today, I may try to do the same with other writers I've befriended on this website. At least it will be more professional and there won't be any obnoxious trolls.” I am sorry that you did not focus on the many positives that emerged but rather chose to highlight “the obnoxious trolls”. The reason this article came into existence - and I’m repeating myself here - is the unease I felt both as a writer and a reviewer. I sensed a similar unease in others.
This unease grew over the days as I accepted reviews and offered reviews in turn. I voiced this unease in an article, hoping to generate discussion and some positive outcomes. I am not here for self-promotion or any number of altruistic reasons. In fact, the biggest thing to happen here is my acceptance that I am not a poet in the strict sense of this word. I thought I was. Yet what I was really doing was writing vertical prose. A kind reviewer pointed this out, and upon testing his theory and the reasoning behind it, I understood it for the truth it was.
You seem to be insinuating that this article was unprofessional and written to incite division and allow ‘unsupervised’ trolling by “obnoxious” fellow writers. This is nonsensical, if it is what you are insinuating. I cannot ‘supervise’ free speech. Nor can I control comments based either on my judgment or anyone else’s. I left the issues open for debate. Some people embraced the idea; others chose it as a platform for their own agendas.
To paraphrase your earlier words, ‘I am not the absolute authority on anyone's opinion and I don't pretend to be’. What one person may consider “obnoxious” another might consider ‘insightful’ and vice versa.
“So read my stuff if you like, but from the tone of this page and what went down today, I don't think you are going to be very objective.” This is an odd thing to say. You know nothing about me, we have not interacted prior to this moment yet you have already judged me and denounced my objectivity. You have labeled me based on a single article and the subsequent responses. This is a very narrow outlook and one I take offence to. Perhaps if you had allowed me to read your work and offer up my thoughts, there might have been some justification to this statement.
What you have done however is cast doubt on any attempt by me to review your work. You have ensured that my objectivity will be questionable. If my review is genuinely positive, it will be perceived as me trying to prove you wrong. If my review on the other hand seeks clarification and/or points to things I may have found needing improvement, again, I face the risk of being perceived biased against you.
I am sorry for this, as you were recommended to me by someone and I was genuinely looking forward to reading and commenting on your work.
“Oh, by the way, I can handle criticism. I have two college degrees and have had my share of snotty English professors. I also have many rejection letters from magazines so I know what real editors can do to your ego. And still I haven't quit.”
There really is no need to prove this to me. I didn’t ask you for justification. As I commented earlier, “@Robert J Waguespack, I wandered over and read your "about" me. 'nuff said. Thanks for the re-direct :) I will read some of your work as I feel I will like it... more on that later.”
I cannot see anything in this post that warrants you defending yourself against my ‘criticism’. In fact, it was a friendly shout-out that I felt a connection to you, based on your bio, and that I was looking forward to conversing with you later.
Sorry about the length of the response. It is because of this ‘connection’ that I am now feeling extreme disappointment.

[Frank]

Good essay, outlines the problems of the brash culture and easy writers. Good writing is rare, some are bullies, some brash in criticism, they pay for it. Other honest in feedback, all sorts. If you can give honest feedback without offending that is the best way forward. Avoid childish people, immature.

There is a lot of rubbish writing on here. Here is the thing, a lot of my work is workshopping drafts. Some of it I really like, not everyone agrees with me. I tend to write poetic narrative. The current mode for clever poets is a crossword type enigma that takes some working out. Poets rave about it, does little for me. I tend to write concrete poems, something you can get your teeth into. So some of the poems I thought rubbish actually win awards. So allow for all types of writing, even cliche ridden drivel has it place.

One of the so called great poets of the modern times writes mediocre poetry, it really is mundane and he is a horrible person.

A bully is someone who won't let go, in my day when a guy said in a fight, I've had enough, we always let him go. That isn't enough for many they want to break the spirit, now that is a bully, best to avoid and place on permanent ignore. I've done it, it's the only way.

[Elise Anton]

Hi Frank, thanks for stopping by and adding your thoughts on the issues I presented. Much appreciated.

[Robert Parlange]

See my profile page. 'nuff said.

[M. L. F.]

The great one appears! :) Well said Robert :) Badges...

[Elise Anton]

The great one does not allow responses so sorry M. L. Stuitje, I kinda had to hijack yours.
@Robert J Waguespack, I wandered over and read your "about" me. 'nuff said. Thanks for the re-direct :) I will read some of your work as I feel I will like it... more on that later.

[M. L. F.]

No problem Elise 😜

[Elise Anton]

Thank you :)

[M. L. F.]

You're quite welcome😊

[Samuel Dickens]

Yes, you're right. It's all true. I've been here for years, and know just exactly what your concerns are. If someone is here just to receive warm fuzzies, they can find them aplenty. If you want constructive criticism that facilitates improvement, you can find that, too, but not so easily. It's all about the friends you connect with.Over the years, quite a few have asked me for constructive criticism, and when I complied, they didn't like it. I can't count the number of times I've given an honest review, only to have it blow up in my face. A person who's serious about their writing should appreciate honesty. They might squirm a bit, but they'll be thankful. To avoid conflict, I tend to shy away from bad writing and practice the adage, "If you can't say something good, then say nothing at all". If I know the person well or think they're competent enough to take it, I'll give it to them straight. Nicely, though. We must always practice the golden rule, despite being far away, sitting behind a computer.

[Elise Anton]

Hi Samuel, nice to meet you. As someone who has been on here for years, I value your opinion.

This: "A person who's serious about their writing should appreciate honesty. They might squirm a bit, but they'll be thankful." sums it up. Squirming is good. Places you out of your comfort zone, where posibiities lie...

This: "To avoid conflict, I tend to shy away from bad writing and practice the adage, "If you can't say something good, then say nothing at all"." is what prompted me to write the piece, as I found myself doing exactly the same thing...

I agree with the nicely. There is a way - especially for more seasoned folk - to present criticism without an attack on the person. Where I struggle is when even tis niceness is assumed offensive, viewed within the sea of positivity and mutual admiration...

Tank you for stopping by and joining the discussion.

[Nigel Newman]

Elise Hi. I read your piece and was nodding a great deal. I might add, as a sort of aside, receiving friend requests and read requests from folk who haven't contributed anything substantive or constructive. But back to your discussion with Sam - I'm fairly new to WC but have found Sam's comments excellent and much valued. I try to be equally constructive when commenting on other folk's work. And if they have asked me to read it and I think it has issues, I'll try and say so constructively. But, like Sam, I don't go out of my way to critically review pieces I happen to have come upon. I think my other hesitation is that, of course, we're all different, and we like and respond to different things. So sometimes I think 'who am I to say whether X is good, bad, correct or whatever'. So those are the main areas where I'll hold off. But by and large, I very much go along with your message about honesty.

[Elise Anton]

Hi Nigel, nice to meet you too. Your contribution largely reflects both mine and Samuels. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I get what you mean about 'who am I to say whether X is good, bad, correct or whatever'...

I have two printed quotes on my wall:

"I've been all over the world and I've never seen a statue of a critic.” Leonard Bernstein

“When you criticize someone with followers, the followers recognize that, if you are correct, they have been sucked in. If they had been sucked in, then they must not be too bright, or at least they were not well enough informed to form a critical judgment which would have led them to identify their leader as someone not worth following. So, a criticism of the leader produces a particular response in the followers. They feel that there has been an attack on them personally. The critic is saying, loud and clear, that anyone who has followed this particular leader is not a good judge of character, intellect, or facts. They are quite correct. This is exactly what the critic is saying.” ― Gary North

Who you are - who we all are I guess - on here, is a person who writes and who reviews. None of us are experts in either craft. Yet we depend on each other. How we work within this dependence determines our overall commitment to our craft.

And the third, from my personal guru:

“A good writer possesses not only his own spirit but also the spirit of his friends.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

I seek friendship in here... Maybe - hell no - I have FOUND friendship in here. I have met some wonderful people. For me, that's where the value lies...

Thanks again :)

[Nigel Newman]

Well said - especially like the analysis and logic of the 2nd quote and the humour of the first. I reflected overnight on this discussion, and I looked back at my time providing training in a professional accounting and consulting firm. Good feedback, everybody said, had to be SMART, which from memory and a quick browse, stood for Specific, Meaningful/Measurable, Achievable/Accountable, Related/Relevant, Timely. Interesting how the words appear to vary slightly between search results, but they're all basically saying 'Wonderful, I love your writing' is about as useful as a pencil sharpener with no blade, other than sending a general tone of 'carry on doing what you do'. I wouldn't mind this if there were specifics like 'I adore the way you bring dialogue to life by having speakers do X and Y'. Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir here.

Back to my other beef, which I threw in a line about in my first response, i.e. what I'd term mutuality. I'm more than happy to read someone's work or friend them IF, but only if, their track record shows that they have already been constructively and substantively contributing to WC. And this ties in with your excellent Bernstein quote. I'd say I regularly provide way more feedback (trying to observe all the points e've discussed) than I ever receive, and my understanding of the laws of mathematics tells me that someone somewhere is getting way more feedback than they ever give. This really really irks me. I see pieces of writing with screens and screens of feedback when the piece itself looks pretty average and unremarkable, and I think 'whoa' something's not quite right here - where is the contract? But of course, there is no contract - these folk are presumably highly friended and also prone to sending read requests, neither of which I favour. So I had to have a wary chuckle at Leonard; it's a great quote. Anyway, I'm rambling, and will stop here. Finally to say again, well done for posting and launching such a well followed discussion.

[Blackheart]

A fellow poet of writerscafe recommended me to read this. And after reading it, I have come to realise that what you're trying to point out here is indeed true upto a certain level. The quality of what you write is never going to be judged by stars or badges you get on a website where you share all your writings with the rest of the world.
My only motto of being here is, to write and share my love of writing with people who want to read and have the time to do so. As a writer that's my only purpose. I don't crave for reviews or appreciation although it feels good when someone appreciates your efforts every now and then. Kinda keeps the fire burning to write more and more. And to write better then before.
I suggest that you write. All these keyboard warriors will grow tired and fade away one day. What you write will live on forever. If you like something that you read, give words of encouragement to the writer. If you didn't feel that good about it, do state your opinions in a genuine manner. That's what I do and I feel everyone else should do. If somebody bullies you, block him/her. As simple as that. You don't want negativity, you shun it upright.
Just my opinions. May vary with yours. Peace out.

[M. L. F.]

Agree with this frame of mind completely. It is reason enough to be here to be inspired by the few who are honest and positive, who actually want to watch your growth and progression as a writer. We are intelligent enough to discern, over time, of which camp our reviews are coming from and glean what we need to learn from them. To forge honest relationships with other honest writers to exchange work with. They exist here, I have already met more than a few...

[Elise Anton]

Thanks Blackheart. This has generated some good discussions and at the end of the day, any exchange of ideas and points of view is a positive thing. I understand what you are saying. And sure, I can ignore things I see and just concentrate on myself and my writing. I can do exactly as you suggest and be as you suggest. It would work faultlessly were it not for the site's reward system. People see those four 'awards' I have ín my profile and think I must be good. New/young writers turn to me for advice based on these. Problem is, I have no idea of whether I am indeed a good writer, a goor reviewer or anything else because of this reward system. Out of the many, only one or two have dared to give me something other than positive, lauding admiration, looking at my work critically and discussing areas they felt merited discussion. In turn, as I mentioned, I only review works I like or I in turn think merit discussion. This creates division, groups within groups. I have been blocked several times for speaking honestly and I think you can see from my manner thusfar that I am far from a bully. I use words constructively and I always end my reviews on the premise that my opinion is just that - an opinion.

No one has bullied me. One has tried, accusing and so forth but I think in hindsight he has regretted it.

You say that it feels good when someone appreciates your efforts and this motivates you to write more and "better than before". This is where I get confused because this appreciation is by default 'positive'. You may not care about reviews and awards and that is noble of you, but the next person, the one who gave you this appreciation might have different motives see. So while you are feeling appreciated, they are gathering 'points'and 'percentages'. Does that make sense? Your "feeling good" may only be due to the fact that you are one of many this person reviewed positively in order to attain a certain status. So what you accept as honesty may not be honest, merely a pandering to the system.

Shunning negativity and criticism as you suggest also feeds this illusion of overall 'greatness'. I welcome criticism and respect those who feel strongly enough about both themselves and my work to offer up their honest opinion. As I said, any exchange of points of view generates honest discussion, and it is from this I can best know my own strength as a writer and perhaps find a way to further expand on this skill.

Thank you for taking the time to read and share your opinion. We agree on some things and disagree on others. If it were otherwise, then I would worry :)

[Blackheart]

Indeed, what you said is absolutely true. I agree with your views regarding the badge system of this website. It is kinda confusing to judge a writer based on the number of badges he/she has got. But I don't think it should affect you. I myself have four badges. I may get a 5th one soon. Big deal for me? Nope. I don't give a s**t about all these badges. I give reviews the same way I give. Gaining a top review badge hasn't changed my style of giving reviews. It's not like I sugercoat things a bit too much after getting a badge. Frankly, I don't give a damn about the badges. It's quite hilarious. :D

Secondly, if anyone is gaining points and percentages from what you're saying, good for them. Why are you wasting your time thinking what they're thinking? The internet is full of people waiting to pounce upon you, criticise you, troll you, block you and what not. How you deal with that is upto you. I ignore them all unless they really cross the line. Many writers have blocked me here as well. I don't give a s**t. Ton of things still left to read and I concentrate on that.

I actually didn't advise you to shun negativity and criticism at all. Face it as long as you can. But after a while, it gets boring and it's better to step down and go give a candy and a pat on the back of your opponent. Your mind and energy will be at peace and healthy. :D

We are all here to write and that's what we should concentrate upon. I think so.

[M. L. F.]

While I think what you are saying about the positive reviews in the name of selfish gain, for points and for badges is very real, and very true, I also see another side of the coin. I think if you check into a fellow writer here, you can see the sort of reviews they give to others quite easily, and thus formulate your own thoughts as to whether they tell every single writer they are the best they have ever read, or if they only said such a thing to you... It is sort of depressing, to be honest to think that we cannot then get excited when we receive solid honest praise from a fellow writer, who has no history of puffing up other writers for gain. In example, I got a review that had, perhaps your sandwich technique applied, I do not know, I cannot say he even know such a technique. But this man has been on here for some time, and has given few reviews that I can see, which all seemed honest and non "brown nose-ish", for lack of an appropriate phrase. He spoke of the things in my work he would fix, and spoke of good things. I read his work, and he is damn good! He has hundreds of reads on his stories and when I read them, I understand why. In my opinion he is publishable, and I studied fiction writing in college under a published author. I am an English major. I am not perfect, by any stretch, but the language is my love, and this man is incredible... I tell him so, and I thoroughly mean it! And now I just want to say that not all of us here are applauding for badges. I don't care about the badges. The badges are not going to help me hone my craft, the badges are not going to convince a publisher to take a chance on me. But the encouragement I received from this fellow writer, who I myself deem honest and WILDLY talented, is something that gave me the courage to move forward with my writing, and for that I am thankful. I hope that the message people get from this is just this: Buyer, beware, there are false prophets out there, lots and lots of them, but there are honest teachers as well, and sometimes.... a compliment here is meant word for word how they person intended it from the heart...

[M. L. F.]

oops, see? typo's... I meant, how "the" person intended it from the heart...

[Davidgeo]

I like what this Stuitje cat has to say.

[Blackheart]

Exactly. That's what I said. Genuine appreciation is always rewarding to the mind. When someone visits your profile he or she will look into your writings. He won't count how many badges you've got and be like "oh! He's got 5 badges. He must be an amazing writer!" No. That doesn't happens. What you write is what defines you. Even I sometimes get really beautiful suggestions and reviews from my fellow writers which really makes me happy and gives a feeling that yeah! Maybe what I wrote is connecting with the masses. And when that happens, it's just magic.

[M. L. F.]

It's utterly magical. And no amount of convincing will dissuade or steal my joy in these delicious little moments in life... ;)

[Blackheart]

I agree with every word you said. :)

[M. L. F.]

Thank you... At some point we have to take a positive stance in the negative sea.

[Blackheart]

Indeed. The seas we dwell in hide the sharks of negativity within. :)

[M. L. F.]

Truth... Oooh sharks, no no no nooooo.. Now there is a great idea for a horror short story, (except Jaws already beat me to it ha!)... Sharks... lurking in the sun deprived shadows, eyes black as oil... No thanks!! .... Biggest irrational fear. Sharks. Just no...

[Elise Anton]

That's very heartening guys... Sometimes I throw things out there to generate discussion and yes, I agree with your thoughts on disregarding the points/reward system. Notice though, all of us in this discusion are outside of the young/new writer I most care about. (Yeah, I know, none of us are 'writers' in the strict sense of the word! Self included.) These young/new writers may not see quite as clearly nor have the nous to discrn the real from the self-promotion. I've heard a lot from them behind the scenes the past few days. Their overall surprise at the rating system surprised me in turn, for I believed everyone could see the premise it was built on. So whilst the few of us on here can quite easily take a review for what it is ie puffery or worthy, they take it on face value. They see every review as a delicious little moment of life and given enough of these moments...

[M. L. F.]

Yes, true enough, but I think that is all a part of growing up, which we all have to do at some point. Perhaps the fact that you were bold enough to pen this story, divulging the system for what it's worth, and that it drew tons of attention, will help spread the word of caution for these new writers, not to take each and every review for its face value, but to explore for themselves and hone their better sense of judgement, a skill desperately needed for aspiring writers and life, in general.. ;)

[Elise Anton]

If I have done even a fraction of that, then I can take a big breath and move on. Thank you :)

[M. L. F.]

No, thank you Elise ;) I just need to hear your accent at least once, by the way! It's a really cool one I bet! :)

[richy]

Don't fear sharks fear killer whales. Killer whales are way scarier.

[Elise Anton]

Picture English with a very slight Southern European accent and when the occassion calls for it, a slight British inflection... Don't know where the British bit comes from and it's hilarious when it emerges... Maybe too many 18th and 19th century novels in my youth or I lived another previous life lol...

[M. L. F.]

lol... Now you have me so scared richy, I will NEVER set foot in the ocean again!! Sharks AND killer whales? :0

[M. L. F.]

Ok... I know a dutch guy here and he watched tons of BBC and now speaks flawless English, with the most insane British accent! You would swear he is born and raised in England, then he opens his mouth and Dutch words fly out. Weirdest thing to see...

[richy]

I can barely control my anxiety swimming in a pool. Those beasts haunt me lol

[Elise Anton]

Hey I'm from downunder remember! We have sharks everywhere. How do you feel about stingrays? We have some huge ones here too, my boys used to love swimming among them off the pier...

[Davidgeo]

Damn stingray killed Steve Irwin.... stingrays are a******s.

[Elise Anton]

The boys and I met Steve when they were little. I have a photo of my mum sitting in his battered 4wd lol. Freat guy. Got a behind the scenes look-see which was awesome.

As to stingrays, the boys float on the top. They meander along the bottom. We had a family of them circling the pier for years. FYI not all of them have the stinger thingy... Oh we also have some crocs too. We watched Steve walk up to one monster and hand-feed it. Those I'm scared of!!!!

[M. L. F.]

Oh man, we have a running dinner debate in our house... from time to time. Which death is worse, death by shark or death by croc? My family all gangs up against me and says crocs... but I disagree!! Their argument is that crocs do the death-roll with you, thrashing about and drowning you. But my thought is.... Giant beast the size of a bus, coming at you in deepest, darkest waters, eyes cold, roll black and mouth the size of.... Idk what.... opens to rows upon rows of arrowhead like, jagged, razor sharp teeth!! .... And P.S. You will also drown under there with the shark... You think that bad boy is gonna let you up to sunbathe? :0

[M. L. F.]

I don't think so ladies and germs...

[richy]

I'm flagging you this s**t is making me sea sick

[Elise Anton]

Haha. I've been very close to both sharks and crocs. A croc will also drag you into the water. Many surfers in our waters have survived shark-attacks, bite on the leg and so forth. I can't think of anyone who has survived a croc attack. Seen those jaws up close? We have entire areas - maybe most of the top end- croc-infested and it's a walk/swim at your own peril situation with warning signs everywhere... I'm with your family on this one :)

[M. L. F.]

Hahahah... I told them and they are very happy with you right now Elise!! lol

[M. L. F.]

@ richy... Go ahead, flag me... make my day :) I will have a bunch of baby killer whales delivered to your pool while you are away...

[Elise Anton]

richy settle down! You like penguins? We have those too and there's a place called Phillip Island where you sit quietly on the foreshore and watch them surfing the waves home then waddling to their nests... They're fairy penguins and very very cute... Is this better ;)

[richy]

watch Blackfish on netflix and then see why a cute penguin can't distract me from the beast for long lol

[M. L. F.]

Haha!! scary...

[Elise Anton]

I will send you a fluffy cuddly penguin to hug those moments...

[Takeshi Yamada]

I can't remember who recommended that I read this essay, but I'm glad they did. I'm new to this kind of 'share your writing' online community, but I agree with you on many points. I've put some stories up and received much more positive feedback than I expected. I think a lot of people feel like they want to encourage, and I'm totally cool with that. Since I joined the community, the positive feedback that I've received has encouraged me to get more serious about my writing, and I think that's a good thing. I've finished stories that have been half-done for years because I now have someone to share them with. That alone gives this community value to me.

I think the concern about overly-positive praise for 'crap' is a valid one, but I'm not concerned about it personally. I find myself naturally giving more weight to critical feedback versus praise, and I think other developing writers who are serious will as well. It's just natural because you want to get better. Over time, I'll learn which reviewers are honest and constructive and I'll do my best to create a symbiotic relationship with them, helping each other out by being critical and honest. And I think it's totally valid for people who just enjoy writing but don't aspire to be a professional to look to the community for different things than we might. I think the Writer's Cafe could benefit from having some profile setting saying your level of seriousness about writing, so reviewers could know what level of feedback to give.

I can't say too much about the reverse bullies who bully the critics because I'm too new here to have experienced that. I have seen some pretty rude reviews, but I think those people are just a******s. In those cases, I think you're absolutely right that young people need to develop thicker skin, learn to hear the message, not how it is delivered. It's a larger societal issue that your thesis hits on...we're trying so hard to protect young people from getting hurt that we steal from them the chance to learn that what other people say is just their opinion - and you can choose not to care about it.

By the way, your essay gets a 100! You are the best writer I've ever met. A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!!!! :P

[Elise Anton]

Thank you Takeshi, glad that you joined the discussion. I am relatively new here myself and it is the first time I have shared my work online. I think your point about young writers needing to develop thicker skin is a valid one. I was discussing this very thing with my son yesterday, as he asked how the discusion was going. It led to his asking how I personally 'developed' my craft in an age without computers, without sites like this, without online tools to correct spelling and other technical issues... At 18, he has grown up with technology and cannot properly fathom a world without it.

I said I read. There were not even books on 'how to' in those days. I read others stories, published in the traditional way - meaning I guess they merited this publishing - so in effect were 'good'. I read a lot of books. If anything, they broadened my vocabulary and exposed me to different techniques and genres.

By contrast, young writers today have any amount of tools at their disposal to help them perfect their craft. Using any word-processing software can eliminate most 'technical errors' and polish their work. Sites like this one and others provide opportunity for their work to be assessed and given merit or create pause for them to revisit the work based on constructive advice received. Sadly, this 'advice' is often misread. As you say, they have been protected so much from having their 'feelings' hurt that any negativity is perceived as a threat to themselves.

I think back and wonder where my writing would be today if these same tools and forums had been available...

Thanks again for your contribution :)

[Davidgeo]

"I think the Writer's Cafe could benefit from having some profile setting saying your level of seriousness about writing, so reviewers could know what level of feedback to give. "

That man is a genius. Who would have thought tangible growth could come from confrontation and controversy? ha.

[Lalochezia]

a) Thank you for that first part. I have come to appreciate the effectiveness of monosyllabic answers but I have never employed the 'and?' much. I will put it to good use.

b) I have actually been contemplating quitting this site for a while, mostly for the very reason you describe so well. At first I felt gratified and encouraged but with every gushing review I am increasingly doubting the quality of my work.
I have come across a few people whose feedback is honest and to the point and who have been a major factor in keeping me in this community. Also, I have found one or two jewels which I am very grateful to have found and read.

All in all I agree with you and you have nudged me a little further towards the 'delete account' button. The sad thing: I am at a loss how to find honest reviews for my work now.

[Elise Anton]

Hi Lalochezia. It saddens me you feel this way. I have received messages from others who feel the same but did not wish to say so publicly. I will say to you what I say to them: Quitting this site may alleviate your doubts but will not help in terms of eliminating this overall lauding of mediocrity or your own growth. I have visited several other similar sites and whilst the 'judging/reward' systems may vary, the emphasis on positivity rather than honesty is visible in all of them.

If you have found people here who take the time and review your work honestly, then you should focus on those people and ignore the rest. There ARE writers and readers here who look beyond the acquisition of awards and self-promotion, I have met quite a few of them and this is the reason I am still here myself. I have also met young/new writers who have reached out and who I work with both publicly and privately, in a collaborative effort to help them grow and perfect their craft.

The fact you have begun to doubt the 'quality' of your work within this system speaks highly of you. You have not fallen victim to the system and for that alone, you SHOULD remain, and continue to question and receive constructive feedback - as I said, there are people here willing to speak honestly and without any motive other than to help you grow. Feel free to send me any read requests, I am not a 'bully' as some have painted me :)

[Davidgeo]

"I am at a loss how to find honest reviews for my work now."

Stick around, I bet this place is going to under go some cultural change in the coming weeks. It might renew your interest.

[Lalochezia]

Elise, thank you for your encouragement; in particular the bit about other website displaying the same tendency for undue praise.
Yes, there are willing and honest reviewers here but I have to admit that my writing style is trying and I although I cannot blame members for abandoning my story after the first or the first two chapters, it is frustrating.

What would benefit this website and its members, in my opinion, would be a beta-seeking function in which people can partner up according to their preference. It would speed up the reviewing process immensely instead of uploading a book chapter by chapter. I have finished another 93k romance novel and could really use a beta on it. I have already written to the admin about it but have had no response. Do you know of an ACTIVE group, one over whose entries generations of spiders have NOT webbed? ;)

[Elise Anton]

Forget the admins... I also belong to NaNoWriMo (November Novel Writing Month) where we are challenged each November to write 50k words about anything... It's a gruelling month but teaches you commitment and routine. They also have forums and groups where you can ask for beta readers. Some read opening few pages and some entire works. The critique isn't too bad, much more serious than here, and more 'improvement-focussed.

If you like, PM me and send it vial email, I'm more than happy to take a look :)

Great idea to have this function on here but the 'rating' system won't allow it... unless we form a group such as the ones I mentioned above?

[Gee]

Morning ma'am.Guess I'm in here as a warrior,a defender of women!!!Thing is the fella I had my spat with gave as good as he got,in fact he was considerably more gifted in the verbal battle.My beef with him was that he was pig s**t rude,and rude I don't do.Looking back,I should have yanked his chain in a playful manner,but easy to dwell on hindsight.However,he humours me greatly when reading his reviews because he tears to pieces what he deems to be shite,which is his right,(I secretly wish he hadn't blocked me now,but hey ho)and he usually backs up his case.
I'm with you on the reviewing,much of which is to receive glowing accolades in return.I read quite a few poems,stories on here,many are total garbage,so review not for fear of offending,which is as bad as reviewing falsely I suppose as the writer will never improve.With regards to my own stuff,I know I'm limited,what I do post means very little,I'd never dream of calling myself a poet or writer because this to me is just a way to while assay time whilst the family are out,sleeping or whatever.(My punctuation is proper shite,sorry).Anyways, enjoyed your truly magnificent,modern masterpiece on the sycophantic leanings of the global wannabe bard and their need to be lauded,praised,put on a pedestal,have petals thrown at their feet and generally loved and adored.And to finish it off the saying I hate most,MY DEAR POET......AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH.

[Elise Anton]

Gee, you lost me in your second sentence. "I'm in here as a warrior, a defender of women!" May have been tongue in cheek or said out of genuine concern, but really, it was an unnecessary opening and made me pause before continuing to read.

I think from memory you and I have exchanged thoughts before. I am not comfortable with any warrior coming to my defence and I think it is quite obvious in my work that I can use words well enough to 'defend'myself should the need arise.

That aside, you do raise some interesting issues. I am not sure exactly who you had a spat with, and I am assuming it was over some critical remark aimed at a female writer - based on the premise of why you say you are here?

I agree on the point you make about the review system. You are correct in saying that offering no review is just as destructive as offering a false one, as it does not help the writer grow and perfect their craft.

Why you choose to denigrate yoursef... is this because of self-doubt or because of the system within which you offer up your work? As I mentioned to someone earlier, your punctuation is an easy fix - just run it through any number of word-processing programs before pasting on here. That's what I do. I have a pretty good grasp of the English language but I would never directly write on here without first using a system such as I have suggested. Even now, posting replies, I have a thesaurus tab open and I still double-check a word I feel uncomfortable with. Again, not that difficult really.

I sense an overall laziness creeping in. The tools are there - tools as I mentioned earlier I wish I'd had access to when I began this journey - but sadly they are not being utilised. Whilst you may be on here to as you say "just a way to while assay time whilst the family are out,sleeping or whatever." other people DO have access to and read your work and are here to perfect their own, so keep that in mind. Your punctuation is not proper shite, it is below par because YOU will not take the effort to present it at its best, thus doing yourself and others a disservice. This is me offering up unbiased and critical advice BTW.

Your tongue in cheek (again?) ending sounds humorous on the surface. I won't delve deeper. I will accept it for what it is. Thanks for joining the discussion and offering your points of view. Every opinion matters, really.

[Gee]

Morning,yes tongue in cheek.Wasn't aware a punctuation check was available,will have to have a butchers.Thank you for getting back to me.Take care

[Elise Anton]

Same here buddy.