Faith & Spirituality Without The Bs Forum Thoughts on religion

One of the great mysteries of life is what happens after death. Is there a heaven and hell? Will I be saved? So many different beliefs and within these beliefs are divergent interpretations. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong.

For me, my belief system is one of continuous evolution. As I gain more knowledge and more wisdom; it shows me that there are even more things that need to be learned. I believe that there is a higher being or entity that has created what we understand to be reality. For lack of better understanding, I will accept the name of God being assigned to this entity. This is part faith and part logical deduction that has led to this conclusion. As a matter of faith, I will also concede that Jesus did exist on this planet at the time he did. It is the nature of his existence where I have doubts.

Life and death are far too complex to simply placed into categories of good vs evil; going to heaven or going to hell. Within an evil person, there are moments when they do good things and conversely with good people there are moments when they do evil. Along with that, to define the reward of heaven as the sole providence of a chosen group of people is rather illogical; some of those chosen people could be basically a******s.

In my view, the creator has a different plan for each person; as we all perceive reality differently. We all connect to our spiritual selves in different ways and for different reasons. Our needs vary as well, since some need comfort in a time of crisis; while others simply need to know their place in the universe. Each situation needs a different level of understanding that a simple verse in a religious text may not correctly address.

What to say about spirituality and religion? I've hardly heard of a religion that didn't have at least one good point to consider. And though certain Christian faiths( and non Christian), which I was loosely raised in, would consider it a "sin" of sorts to explore other ideologies, I have to believe that the true Higher Power which guides mankind would want nothing more than to have human beings searching for the Truth. That being said, hopefully this group can bring some interesting truths to light through the diversity of it's members. Amen.

I apologize ahead of time if I offend or just plan rant. I've been told "I'm going to hell" a decent amount of time because of my own beliefs and actions.


Religion is a subject, that in my opinion is too touchy of a subject. It really doesn't need to be. Very few things in life should be so touchy that you have to walk on eggshells. Politics used to be the same way. It was something you couldn't talk about. Most religions were taken from other beliefs. The oldest known religion of man is Shamanism. A lot of the stories that are in the Christian bible have come from other religions that existed before them. They're all moral stories, not necessarily historically based or at least not the way it is written. Too many people take it word for word exactly as it is. If people took everything in the bible word for word then I'd be put to death because I've cursed at my mother before. In 11th grade I had a literature teacher tell the class that 'the bible was the greatest book of fiction ever written.' An interesting note, the bible was written by more than one person at different times. They were stories passed down from generation to generation through word of mouth.

I was brought up Christian, but it never felt right to me. I went to church as a kid and hated it. My mother still thinks I should go to her church when I don't believe in it. Basically she's trying to convert me. I can't stand people that do that. Don't try to force your religious beliefs on me and I'll leave you alone. Religion can be discussed in a civil manner when people aren't so hell bent on their beliefs. Too many closed minded people.

My own personal beliefs are different from the average person. I'm not Christian, never want to be and never will be. My church is nature. There is no hell in my belief. Yes I believe in non-human spirits, but I don't believe they are necessarily good or evil. They have a choice on what they are and people can change so why not non-human spirits? I don't believe in pure evil. Now the bad stuff that happens in the world, like natural disasters, is done by the God and Goddess. Yes that means I'm Pagan, but an eclectic one. That's the beauty of solitary religions, you can form your own opinions without being told what you should and should not believe and do. The few of one God being all powerful and all knowing and all good just baffles me. In the bible God drowned people. (Noah's Ark). Why is he viewed as just good? And my belief in a Goddess is caused by the fact that there are so many things in nature that are both feminine and masculine. It makes things balanced. I also believe that everyone dies into their own belief. No one religion is right. Every religion claims to be the one and only right one, when that's not true at all. You die into your own heaven or even hell if that's where you think you're going to go. The only hell that really exists is vast nothingness. Which is how we get spirits. Suicides, or tragic deaths, people who don't know they're dead or even possibly atheists. (all these beliefs come from personal experiences). No higher power is going to do anything for me or anything to stop me. I make my path in life and have the control over it.

Again I apologize if I offended anyone.

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It is my hope that all can feel free to speak, as this group is more about fostering understanding as opposed to judging others. You have very valid views, it would take a spiritually and intellectually weak person to be offended by your very coherent views.

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I am deeply offended! Just kidding... ::biggrin::

You should never feel obligated to apologize if you offend someone. All you did as state your beliefs; if someone finds them offensive, they are probably in the wrong group.

My own beliefs are based largely on the Christian Chruch's, because I have been a member my whole life and have no problems with being so. I do not, however, believe in Hell, because no human being is without joy, friends, family, and influences. No human being should be made to suffer for eternity for what they believe or don't believe in; if I end up in Hell for not believing in it, then we all know God has a sense of humor.

I do believe that God exists, and I think that by definition, He does exist. Those who argue that He is not an actual presence are true, but that doesn't mean he is not an idea, or an existing premise. Those who argue that mankind invented God justify His existence--does the fact that He was invented not mean that He exists? It really doesn't matter who came first, to me--I believe in God even though I don't understand everything about religion. It is a choice I make, and no one else has to.

As far as Church goes, you have to take it for what it's worth--even if you don't buy into the splendor and the priesthood, at least take the idea of group celebration--thats all I do.

I really like some of the thinking you brought up in the first thread. (I haven't finished reading the rest of the threads - was so impressed I stopped there- but I am will read on to find out what everyone else is thinking) But anyways, the heaven and hell concept, it is too simple, something easy to tell children, and for humankind it evolved out of a need. Maybe people want simple answers.

I was raised Catholic. And I always liked the idea of purgatory. I liked to think of it as a place where people learned how to be better so they could go to heaven - like a school of sorts. But Catholicism has so many contradictions in it. And I remember that Purgatory was also a place for babies who were not baptised. This seemed incredibly unfair to me.

Anyways, I think eastern philosophies/ religions make the most sense to me now. I think whatever goes on is to complex for us to understand. And I think it makes much more sense to believe that we are entities evolving from one life to the next.

But it is funny. I find that many people find the idea of reincarnation disturbing. I know I did when I was little. I could not grasp the concept and it frightened me. I was me. I could not have ever been anyone else.

But now I think that is ego.

I still consider myself a Christian, but I wish there was a church out there that did not focus so much on the divinity aspect but just simple worshipped him for his teachings, his courage, and his integrity.

When they made him into a God ( and I do not wish to offend those that believe that and I am not saying he is not. He very well may have been) BUT Jesus the man got lost. To me, it is so much more powerful to think of Jesus as human.

I mean how many of us have felt powerless? How many of us have felt afraid? How many are met with discrimination, persecution?? And so often if in our own little lives we lack courage, integrity. I think Jesus is a much more powerful influence if you think of him as human. He was like us. We could to have his attributes.

Also on another note. Jesus was political and that gets lost too, I think. And with everything going on today I think that is too bad.

Excellent Morrow, I like what you have put. Often, I look at the person known as Jesus as a more of a political revolutionary than a deity. Looking at what the pharisees were like and the Roman administration of Judea; he was quite controversial. Seems to me that his image was glorified after his death for rather greedy reasons.

Ok, from what I was taught (not in the King James version) in the bible, Jesus was always a spirit, but God put him in human form through Mary so that human kind could capture his word and live by it on earth and for the most importance, die for the sins of the world. From what is explained is that the world was in a lot of trouble and demonistic than it is now. Moreover, that is why the flood (Noahs Ark) came as a warning to those that didn't listen to God, but there were those that were saved whom chose to follow Noah through God. Jesus doesn't have to be like us we are suppose to be like him, but like I said before, are minds are so much of this world we do not see that he has given us his knowledge. Jesus was not made into a god, for when Jesus died upon the cross Jesus and God became one in spirit. And I know that will fly over a few heads, but it is truth. The holy trinity of the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God all became one. That is how he was able to ascend into hell to claim the victory of his people over Satan.

God is all-knowing, omnipresent, and allpowerful. Some say if God is all knowing, than why doesn't he do anything about what is going on in the world? why doesnt he stop killings? natural disasters? However, God has given man a great gift that we choose to abuse, choices. He has made man head of the world and able to use our own minds to interpret different meanings of things such as this discussion now. What we as people do with our choices is our fate or the road we choose to go through. And the Lord says that their are consequences or effects of those choices we choose to make. ::cool::

Funny, I just put another part of this scripture in a post recently.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

`Romans 8:1-4

We as people have overlooked many of the purposes of life and take it for granted. We have allowed world to make us, after we were already created. We have laws in life, that overturn the laws of God.

At one time God had to seperate man from man at the Tower of Babel for the talk of disbelief amongst each other. That is when he created different races, and different languages.....and here we are again......makes you wonder what he has up his sleeve next. Maybe some of the things that are happening in the world right now, economically, are just a warning for something greater about to happen; all if changes aren't made, and the signs not noticed.

I like how it was mentioned previously that the bible was oral tradition, passed down for generations, written down much later, and then translated more than a few times.

I think some times, or I wish sometimes, that people would think of what is true in a different way. I think there are a lot of what I like to call "human truths" in the bible, and that kind of truth is what should be the focus. It's like realizing there is a lot of 'truth' in many a fiction novel you have read - that you can learn a lot from about what it means to be human.

I think it is very improbable that the bible is historical accurate, but many people treat this way. Which I find curious and try to figure out why.

But to me, I am reminded of a novel by Ursula Le Quin ( I might be spelling that wrong ) called "The Telling." It a sci-fi novel ( and not my favorite of hers). But I loved the message in it. It was about the importance of "the telling"' - oral tradition and the importance of the truths in them.

What is fascinating to me is that if you think of the old testament as a creation story and compare it with other creation stories from different cultures, it is fascinating to compare and contrast.

The Mayans believed the world was created more than once, and each time there was a fatal flaw and things went wrong. And this is just another one of those times.

Well I'm a Pagan--a non Christian but very open. I have certain and very strong beliefs and don't push them on others. All I do is ask for others opinions and then I tell them what I feel is right for me. Not for them--but for me. Totally different. I'm very open to conversation on religion because I'm very curious on what others have to say about it.
This doesn't mean I'll try to change your mind and go my way--doesn't mean I'll change my mind....
It just means I'm curoius and want to know...
So if anyone has any questions...or just want to blabber their hearts out come talk to me--I'm ready to go!
:)

Birth Of Religion

While surfing the net this morning, I came across the official YES page, with links to Jon Anderson's pages. Jon Anderson is one of the greatest vocalists around. He is one of my favorite people to listen to. He's been featured on at least one Christian compilation CD, and Phil Keaggy has done some guitar work for an upcoming CD which also features Jon Anderson.

But I have a problem with Jon's religion. I'd describe his religious viewpoint as typical New-Age. He is currently a devotee to someone called Divine Mother. Divine Mother is from Hawaii.

On July 13, 1914, Divine Mother was born in the little sugar town of Waipahu on the Island of Oahu, in Hawaii. She was the second of eight children. Her family was very poor and could only afford to send her to school up through the eighth grade.

Throughout childhood, Mother was deeply spiritual and always prayed for others. She was sent to work as a maid and later married. She had five children and remained at home to care for the family. Around 1972, a divine messenger appeared to Mother and told Mother that Sri Ramakrishna had sent her to show Mother how to give out "God is" message for this age.

So here is yet another person who has received a personal divine revelation. As I stated in an earlier message...it seems that these divine messages come to people when no-one else is around. But they are so "miraculous" that they end up turning their experience into a religion, gather followers.

My question...why would I believe that a person's revelation is actually the truth? What do I have to base this belief on?

When I first became a born again Christian, I remember reading the intro to the Book of Mormon. I was mesmerized and astonished at Joseph Smith's story. I had to immediately tell my brother about my "discovery".

Fortunately, he put me in my place, and admonished me that the story was not true.

I had been of the New-Age kind of gatherer of religious beliefs. I kind of believed everything and anything metaphysical. From witchcraft, to theosophy and astral projection, to east Indian religions and everything in between. I believed what Jon's Divine Mother teaches, that God comes to men through various devoted masters through the ages. And all the religous teachers and icons are paths to the same place.

I really don't buy that now. I don't think that Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddah, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed etc., etc. are all perfect masters of the same path. I frankly think that most, if not all of these paths are just made up by mere men. Regardless of the antiquity of said religions, I cannot now see a clear path to God.

And even speaking from the viewpoint where I have the most experience...that is Christianity...what we see in today's Christian church is NOT what was started by Jesus. Throughout hundreds and thousands of years, the Christian church changed and permutated to what came down to us. And even during The Reformation times, those who protested against the P.C. church of the time, created their own versions of what they thought was the true church.

BACK TO JON

So is religion, just a feel-good, new-agey, religious feeling that we get? What are those beliefs based on? Where do they come from?

In Jon Anderson's case of his devotion to Divine Mother...she became enlightened when a "divine messenger" appeared to her. Said messenger was Sri Ramakrishna, an avatar, a divine incarnation of God who was born in India in 1836, and died on August 15, 1886.

Says Who?

And where did he get HIS beliefs. And stretch back in time to where all of it began. IMHO a lone idea of a single person who "saw" or "discovered" a belief.

Ancient Beliefs

Akhenaten's Religious revolution. (

Akhenaten was Pharaoh in Egypt about 3,500 years ago. His claim to fame was in overthrowing the polythestic religion of Egypt and instituting the monotheistic worship of one single god; Aten, the sun god.

When he did this, the priests were infuriated. Mainly because Akhenaten was putting them out of business. Though historians don't know the real reason for this religous revolution, some say it was politically based. After Akenaten�s death, the old priests and politicians sought to wipe any memory of Akenaten and his religion from the face of Egypt. They reverted to their old polythestic beliefs.

Zoroaster (aka Zarathustra)
According to the sources, Zoroaster probably was a priest. Having received a vision from Ahura Mazda (which is simply the name meaning, "the Wise Lord"), the Lord appointed him to preach the truth. Zoroaster apparently was opposed in his teachings by the civil and religious authorities in the area in which he preached. It is not clear whether these authorities were from his native region or from Chorasmia prior to the conversion of Vishtaspa. Confident in the truth revealed to him by Ahura Mazda, Zoroaster apparently did not try to overthrow belief in the older Iranian religion, which was polytheistic; he did, however, place Ahura Mazda at the centre of a kingdom of justice that promised immortality and bliss.

Zoraoastarianism evolved into the monothestic religion that it is today. But it began from one person�s vision. But this religion taught certain beliefs about their version of the one true God, that came from some person�s mind. (see the detail at the URL linked above).

Abraham
Abraham was from polythestic Ur, in Mesepotamia. He received a vision where he met Yahweh and was told to go out from his land to a new land that was promised to him and his descendants. For many years, Abraham's religion was that of his and his immediate family. It was after his descendants spent time in Egypt, and multiplied into a greater nation, that the religion of Abraham was embrace by the nation of Israel.

Moses
According to the Bible, Moses was raised by Pharaoh�s daughter, in polythestic Egypt. Moses ultimately left the court of Pharaoh and Egypt and fled to Ethiopia. There, Yahweh appears to him in the form of a burning bush. Moses is given a mission to lead Yahweh�s people out of Egypt.

Another time, Moses goes up to the Mountain, alone, and receives the Law from Yahweh.

The Point
So, the point to this missive and my continued questions are these:

Who started these religions?
Is one religion as good or bad as the next? Why or Why not? Weren't they all just made up my the minds of men and women?

i dont think that it is a "a matter of faith" that jesus ever existed. after extensive and unbiased research on the subject, i found that there were numerous historical documents referring to jesus. and not just the accounts of his followers, but several secular sources acknowledged his existence. josephus was one of the leading historians of that time period, and he made more than one references to jesus. even documenting his claim as the son of god, his supposed miracles, his death, etc.

as far as the nature of his existence, i believe that we should all do our own research and come to our own conclusions. i personally believe that jesus was god incarnate. that he died for the sins of this world, and that he raised from the dead and lives on today. i admit, ( and i'm sure i'll probably step on a few toes here, but-) i am not a relativist. i believe that the idea of religious pluralism is just as illogical, if not more illogical, than the idea of heaven, ( which, by the way is not the soul providence of a chosen group of people, but rather an option or choice presented to us by god to be determined by our own free will)

Bravo.  We were never meant to abandon our intellect in the pursuit of spiritual understanding.

Richard

Race around the cliffs, beware the edge, death. In the silence left by cosmic devotion, the motion into oceans of truth. But what fear steers us clear of falling into the unknown seas of divinity. And possibly rocks below. Slow movement, shifting, arrogant stances of morality and planted firmly in the grandiose ghost of our own imposed ignorance. Taped accross the eyes, the ears, and the mouth. See no God, hear no God, and Speak no God. All is lost in the winds of change erroding names of meaninglessness into the faded past. I ask you to be faithful. To embrace the graceful, in any way that is not hateful. All God gave us was Love. A reminder hidden and weighted, heavy in our minds. We wind down the mindless encasings on the defaced face of God. The Rock of Ages. Muffled and killed. The witches blade, dulled in a faithless mill. Mystics spill out thier calamities into an unaccepting reality, and we see one thing... HUMANITY never gives up. Never will, never can. It was built into the heart of man the spark of an immortal flame. And shame to wander senseless, to print images like children with paint. The saint is disabled. The fable is cradled by the grave. And grave decisions. When men say to your face beleive or die. Trust or fry in hell. Spell the words acurately in faith, or take your place in the shade of the distaste for imperfection. That shoud teach us a lesson. For if perfection sees flaws and darkness as imperfection, is it truly perfect. Would not the perfect split time, dividing all division, and unifying vision into the living work of art we see? It must be a work of art, a kind remark, since the creator created it. Yet kids and fingerpaints and a God that plays games with souls. I wont roll into blasphemy. I wont even call anything imperfect. So in my observation, all is what it is. We live we die. And Afterlife. Well its like falling asleep on a bus. Where actually do you get off. But we all have dreams upon which we see ourself at the desired destination. Elevation and evolution of man? Or a arrogant glance at a God who refuses to give us peace. We all see the deadly serpents seething accross the earth, billions, and many other beasts roam our streets and even our homes. And even our minds. And even time itself is ripped, into this and that, here and there.   So prepare for this that I will say.  You stay on a planet that is yin and yang, different and same, colored and plain. And like the rain or the river flow, you will grow in the simple changes of that immaculate gift of spirit youve been given. If I would say anything, God is proud of you. And who you are is a child star, born from the infinite nebula of conscious heartful charge. Infinity is your birthing place. For matter cannot be created or destroyed. So look at all around you, it has no beginning. And in the ending of our lives we will find the truth that is blind to us now. How did you get a chance to read this? Why do you even exist? Gift of immortal, eternal, infinite, intelligent, elegant, movement. Breath of life, to reflect the light.