Poetry Theory Forum : Forum : No Subject


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No Subject

12 Years Ago


i'm thinking that poetry is a special way of using words, but maybe the first use of words is from the same space that poetry evolves from. maybe conversation is just thoughtless poetry.
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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


i should say here that i'm not trying to form a method for writing poetry. poetry arises out of the mystery, say, and the mystery is just what it is. we exhibit our poetry as a picture of the mystery; perhaps a picture, perhaps something unexplanable -- this is the program for most people posting here, naive and learned. this is one theory though, and there are other theories. it might be that i'm a radio through which some failed writer of long ago is broadcasting -- sending out bulletins of how it should have been, and not knowing how my now-a-days consciousness interpretes those damned trees and squirrels.

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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


Originally posted by Michael Bauer

i should say here that i'm not trying to form a method for writing poetry. poetry arises out of the mystery, say, and the mystery is just what it is. we exhibit our poetry as a picture of the mystery; perhaps a picture, perhaps something unexplanable -- this is the program for most people posting here, naive and learned. this is one theory though, and there are other theories. it might be that i'm a radio through which some failed writer of long ago is broadcasting -- sending out bulletins of how it should have been, and not knowing how my now-a-days consciousness interpretes those damned trees and squirrels.



I am glad I found this group and I like the chessboard icon ... most illustrative! Poetry is a chess game of the self with the not-self within the self! The biggest problem facing poetry is that people think it is writing lines … so this group is great already because it says theory rather than technique. Anyway, for anyone wanting a full introduction to my thoughts feel free to read my Fractal Flash essay here on the café. Briefly abbreviated, let us jump immediately to poetic essence. What is essential? But that is not the question! No, the question is what is of essence! And the essence is the spirit from which the poem flows, the spirit is the poet, the artist who paints with language! What am I talking about? It is simple really … every so often I read reviews and people mention this stanza or that rhyme or that meter … the kinds of thing that make me want to turn away, but the I am a patient person who tries not to discriminate and as much as possible tries to keep an open mind. But then … when we look at a painting, be it Breughel, Bosh, Dali, Pollock or Malevich … when we try to form a critical interpretation of that work … will we say he moved his paintbrush as such, and this line was drawn more linear than the one parallel to it? Perhaps some people will … but for the most part we look at the painting and even when we look at details we look at them as whole! The problem of poetry is people who analyze it till there is nothing left; the truth is however that poetry is neither being a conformist nor being a rebel … above all, poetry is truth, to be … truthful! And hopefully this says enough by means of an introductory post :)

 

Steven
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[no subject]

12 Years Ago





Originally posted by Steven Van Neste


Originally posted by Michael Bauer

i should say here that i'm not trying to form a method for writing poetry. poetry arises out of the mystery, say, and the mystery is just what it is. we exhibit our poetry as a picture of the mystery; perhaps a picture, perhaps something unexplanable -- this is the program for most people posting here, naive and learned. this is one theory though, and there are other theories. it might be that i'm a radio through which some failed writer of long ago is broadcasting -- sending out bulletins of how it should have been, and not knowing how my now-a-days consciousness interpretes those damned trees and squirrels.



I am glad I found this group and I like the chessboard icon ... most illustrative! Poetry is a chess game of the self with the not-self within the self! The biggest problem facing poetry is that people think it is writing lines … so this group is great already because it says theory rather than technique. Anyway, for anyone wanting a full introduction to my thoughts feel free to read my Fractal Flash essay here on the café. Briefly abbreviated, let us jump immediately to poetic essence. What is essential? But that is not the question! No, the question is what is of essence! And the essence is the spirit from which the poem flows, the spirit is the poet, the artist who paints with language! What am I talking about? It is simple really … every so often I read reviews and people mention this stanza or that rhyme or that meter … the kinds of thing that make me want to turn away, but the I am a patient person who tries not to discriminate and as much as possible tries to keep an open mind. But then … when we look at a painting, be it Breughel, Bosh, Dali, Pollock or Malevich … when we try to form a critical interpretation of that work … will we say he moved his paintbrush as such, and this line was drawn more linear than the one parallel to it? Perhaps some people will … but for the most part we look at the painting and even when we look at details we look at them as whole! The problem of poetry is people who analyze it till there is nothing left; the truth is however that poetry is neither being a conformist nor being a rebel … above all, poetry is truth, to be … truthful! And hopefully this says enough by means of an introductory post :)

 

Steven

the chess image was only for the "critical" part. poetry is maybe a game, but it's a game where the rules force the symbols outside the symbol set. it's a game on a game, and chess is just a game of substitutions -- one pattern exchanged for another until the final pattern if found. set of patterns with limit... like finding the figure in the carpet -- that image. poetry is inventing new frames out of the content within the frame you start with. creativity is like, being able to redefine the chess game into swiming across death valley.
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[no subject]

12 Years Ago




Thinking outside the board! I am always amazed at how tings in life (in general) fall together,  these last few weeks I was watching Twin Peaks season two again and I just finished it last night … there is one moment where Agent Cooper says that Window Early ahs taken the game of the board. Needles to say there is no right and wrong in poetry as long as the poet is truthful and genuine. It is well known that Heidegger was much into poetry, placed poetry up there with metaphysics as genuine inquiry, I think that poetry tends to be more than philosophy however because poetry is thought in motion … it is not transcendental but it is always here and now … I find your chessboard idea and your elaboration interesting because suddenly I must think of Deep Blue beating Kasparov: always there will be new variables! As you rightfully say though poetry is not stuck in a mere game as chess; poetry reaches to infinity; it does not reach to a particular moment but much rather to in betweens. I find it happening more and more that as I write I become a wanderer in a world of movements in between, of the life that exists between lives. Zeno’s paradoxes give us an intricate illustration of poetry’s being … the unseen motion, the driver that drives which can never be observed.

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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


Originally posted by Steven Van Neste



Thinking outside the board! I am always amazed at how tings in life (in general) fall together,  these last few weeks I was watching Twin Peaks season two again and I just finished it last night … there is one moment where Agent Cooper says that Window Early ahs taken the game of the board. Needles to say there is no right and wrong in poetry as long as the poet is truthful and genuine. It is well known that Heidegger was much into poetry, placed poetry up there with metaphysics as genuine inquiry, I think that poetry tends to be more than philosophy however because poetry is thought in motion … it is not transcendental but it is always here and now … I find your chessboard idea and your elaboration interesting because suddenly I must think of Deep Blue beating Kasparov: always there will be new variables! As you rightfully say though poetry is not stuck in a mere game as chess; poetry reaches to infinity; it does not reach to a particular moment but much rather to in betweens. I find it happening more and more that as I write I become a wanderer in a world of movements in between, of the life that exists between lives. Zeno’s paradoxes give us an intricate illustration of poetry’s being … the unseen motion, the driver that drives which can never be observed.

if "poetry is thought in motion", then what is "thought"? cause it seems to me that thought is always plastic and without form until it's presented as something like "poetry". zeno is a figure for us, a metaphor. the lamers would say that zeno's paradox is "poetic".

you're pretty much just name dropping, and it's not necessary in this forum... we can all be retards together, not know anything at all. i think what you might get down with is showing us your image of what "language" looks like to you, cause all the worlds you travel in are reported to you through language. poetry invents its own worlds, its own language. if language is the world, then tell us about language first and then how your language shaped the worlds you saw.

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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


Originally posted by Michael Bauer

you're pretty much just name dropping, and it's not necessary in this forum... we can all be retards together, not know anything at all. i think what you might get down with is showing us your image of what "language" looks like to you, cause all the worlds you travel in are reported to you through language. poetry invents its own worlds, its own language. if language is the world, then tell us about language first and then how your language shaped the worlds you saw.



What language looks like to me … it is not about “looking” in a traditional sense of the word … it is something very intuitive. Often when writing there is music in my head (I think of myself as a composer of fiction at moments); I am fascinated by the idea of the conductor who raises his baton and his movements change the music and its flow. So language is the same as thought really, just that odd singularity, but there are evaporations, slowly things surface in this ambiguity, this looped kind of flow and it forms this communication between my-self and all that is other, it brings changes in the physical world. It is almost like a process of synesthesia … words just come for no specific reason … and I sit there on my balcony writing and I look at the world and there is this flow and like a conductor and composer in one, I wave the baton, direct the flow, allow my breath to become one with it.

 

Steven

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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


Originally posted by Steven Van Neste

Originally posted by Michael Bauer

you're pretty much just name dropping, and it's not necessary in this forum... we can all be retards together, not know anything at all. i think what you might get down with is showing us your image of what "language" looks like to you, cause all the worlds you travel in are reported to you through language. poetry invents its own worlds, its own language. if language is the world, then tell us about language first and then how your language shaped the worlds you saw.



What language looks like to me … it is not about “looking” in a traditional sense of the word … it is something very intuitive. Often when writing there is music in my head (I think of myself as a composer of fiction at moments); I am fascinated by the idea of the conductor who raises his baton and his movements change the music and its flow. So language is the same as thought really, just that odd singularity, but there are evaporations, slowly things surface in this ambiguity, this looped kind of flow and it forms this communication between my-self and all that is other, it brings changes in the physical world. It is almost like a process of synesthesia … words just come for no specific reason … and I sit there on my balcony writing and I look at the world and there is this flow and like a conductor and composer in one, I wave the baton, direct the flow, allow my breath to become one with it.

 

Steven


what does "intuitive" mean, if not something like "language"? isn't language the ability to connect things which needn't connecting?

"language is the same as thought", but that's begging the question of what thought is? and i don't think that thought exists except when it's expressed, and art is the direct expression, and poetry the expression of thought in its protean shape. and really, "shape" is the notion, cause we can't "see thought", but only intuit that thought exists in some knowable form. isn't that what we construct when we think something -- a set of relationships, connections, within a shell? and hasn't the shell a "shape"? is there a "geometry of the imagination"?-- in the way that they speak of a "geography of the imagination"? and it's that geometry the structure of mind and, hence, a reflection of structure itself?
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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


Originally posted by Michael Bauer

"language is the same as thought", but that's begging the question of what thought is? and i don't think that thought exists except when it's expressed, and art is the direct expression, and poetry the expression of thought in its protean shape. and really, "shape" is the notion, cause we can't "see thought", but only intuit that thought exists in some knowable form. isn't that what we construct when we think something -- a set of relationships, connections, within a shell? and hasn't the shell a "shape"? is there a "geometry of the imagination"?-- in the way that they speak of a "geography of the imagination"? and it's that geometry the structure of mind and, hence, a reflection of structure itself?

 

Not necessarily, how often does it not occur that a person is deeply in thought yet when brought back from thought he cannot remember what he was thinking? I often find myself thinking without any expression. A vague analogy is perhaps when something is on the tip of our tongue, you just cannot come up with it … think of the oddity involved: you remember but you do not … so there is ‘entity’ without expression. I have to read more of your work but I think we have a similar sense of wonder in common and obviously I enjoy the depth in your thought here presented.  As for a geometry of imagination, although I am not sure what to think exactly of this, I feel strangely compelled to say there is a meta-geography to thought … I think that properly speaking thoughts as thoughts exist beyond our ordinary spacetime which is why when thought gets expressed there is a back and forth motion of not always being able to find the right words; so you can capture a thought perfectly but when you express it there is a certain struggle to do so, it needs to be translated from the pure language of the mind to language we can consciously understand. In the mind there are many different nodes, our brain is not at all like a computer really because there is no centralized and local processing, so thought exists in different ‘structures’ within the brain and when expressed tends to become compacted because it needs to be brought upon a single plane.

Steven

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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


i think that's the "dynamic" of thought -- that thought, like dream and memory, is a created space for that moment and not a permenent place "in the head". the mode of thinking is maybe more important than the tokens used, though the tokens are the only kinds of tokens that can exist for a particular "thinking".... which is why the thoughts aren't always "remembered" immediately, but sometimes have to be found in "reflection"... the way one has to get back into another language after reading english... the language is there as a process or, better, a "proceedure" for "reading german", and not a text set that you reference and re-initiate, even if it's the reference and model for you "german".

i'm sure Hume talks about this in a much more meaningful way than i'm presenting it. it's not that sophisticated a philosopical concept in itself -- how we might have "thought", only in concept.
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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


... yeah, I hung from a windy tree for 9 longing days and nights, thunder rolled and rain wet my lips and lightening flashed and did I see them laying there before me like leaves are to branch, the Runes I had writ and the means to capture the roots and lightening and sky ...

 



That was the story of the Norse Runes having come from the hanging man, the God Odin as a magical means of capturing and conveying the World Powers. I see the roots of this as  leaves we ponder today in the raptures of Poetics. This reflects in the many Mythologies of the roots of Language.

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was Theos ...

Another 'meaning' of 'LOGOS' was 'MIND" and 'WORD' was an extension, the action of mind ... because 'thought' was imbued with 'LOGOS' and therefore 'THEOS' stirred. The word became a sort of Magical creation on its own. ... and the Word was God! Ergo the 'word' as LOGOS could actually change things; where the idea of incantation Magic comes from like the AbraCadabra Myth.

There are many dead forms and rituals in Language today which have turned to stone the living verities of Beauty in the moving rythmical dance that Language had as its historical purpose. We must be iconoclasts and find the living World Powers held in the crystal Runes. Release the Lightening and Thunder for all to embrace. We are the Gods of meaning and Language is our Magical tool.


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[no subject]

12 Years Ago


If you were to look up the definition of the word "poetry," on dictionary.com namely, it would read something along the lines of:

po·et·ry

–noun
1. the art of rhythmical composition, written or spoken, for exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts.
2. literary work in metrical form; verse.

 

Definitions are fine and all, but there's more to poetry than a dictionary entry can explain. I always saw poetry as a way to say something that is otherwise unexplaiable -- a thought, a moment, an atmosphere.  It's an extract...  Some of the most fascinating poetry I've read is about mundane everyday activities.   It's not a story written in sentences and paragraphs, but one shown with words.

 

Example: 

I dropped three quarters and a nickle into a homeless man's cup outside the convenience store. 

 

It means exactly what it says.  The narrator gave a homeless man eighty cents.  Poetry happens when that story becomes a minimalized sketch, in lines of words, of how four coins came together in a panhandler's cup.

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[no subject]

11 Years Ago


how it is that writing is such a natural thing for you, since you weren't born with a keyboard on your finger tips? i think maybe you're trying to show me what's what with simplicity, but you've done this in a very complicated and second nature manner, constructing prose, and your thoughts seem pre-arranged, and this kind of discussion isn't about giving opinion as much as open and dissolving our opinions. i think i offered something open, in that way, in order to start a dialog on how writing actually isn't 'conversation'.