Anti-psychiatry Forum I will withdraw.

Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic
And how can you say a disease can either exist or not exist? That is completely false, ask any doctor. Look at diabetic for god sakes he is perfectly healthy until he eats a large quantity of sugar.

Originally posted by Janie Lee
No a diabetic is not healthy, only healthy until the diabetes appears the disease, and some of them have to have a large dose of sugar sometimes to keep from going into a diabetic coma or come back out of one, they must take regular amounts of insulin to regulate it and there are reliable measurements and tools to measure it with. A diabetic is always in a diseased state, but it can be controlled by doing the right things, but it can also be measured and verified with very valid and reliable scientific evidence and test.


[quote=Budimir Zdravkovic]And how can you say a disease can either exist or not exist? That is completely false, ask any doctor. Look at diabetic for god sakes he is perfectly healthy until he eats a large quantity of sugar.

Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic
Okay well since you are telling me that I am full of lies and I believe lies. Please disprove to me the following mechanisms, tell me the series of reactions that occur in the Krebs cycle and glycolysis. Tell me the series of mechanisms possible: eliminations(dehydrations), aromatic acid base reactions, substitutions(double bond collapse), decarboxylations and so forth. Show me some calculations that under certain conditions the reactions will occur under other conditions they won't, give me equilibrium values under changing conditions, statistical mechanics and thermodynamic values.

Also tell my why we can predict exactly how these reactions progress under certain conditions since I seem to believe the moon is cheese.

Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic
You know what i said i wouldn't argue. You sent me a message thinking I was upset I warned you about how I can get. I am not angry it's just the way i am when I debate. So I will stick to my word and stop this debate. I'm out, not out the group just out of debating.....for now. ;)

Originally posted by Budimir Zdravkovic
You did not even give the tip of the iceburg from what I asked but a few sprinkles of snow.

(janie) Well perhaps that is because I asked you to share it and to break it down and then I went and looked it up and gave some links to it, so if you can do better then that perhaps you should?

I can go into detail about the reactions, the mechanisms, tell you why that happen but that would require that I summerize an undergraduate education in biochemistry and I can't do that on a message board.

(janie) Like you said hypothesis, and what I said is that they can reliably and vailidly measure chemicals, they know what they are made out of and breathing produces oxygen and carbon so that means that they can pretty much reliably measure how that process works right? They can accurately test breathing and have always had ways to do this to some extent for as long as I can think of that is why they have been giving people oxygen for say 50 or more years now, when they needed it. They can also reliably measure pulse rate and things of this nature, depending on the cuff they use they may or may not be able to get a pretty reliable measurement of BP

We know the Krebs Cycle and you agree it's exact right?

(janie) I didn't agree that it is exact I said that they could probably tell that there was a difference in how someone breathes and the chemicals in those breaths after they work out as compared to before they do, and even that could be variable if you would like me to think about it very seriously?

How do you know then that there isn't something underlying depression that we just haven't discovered yet or we don't fully understand yet? 50-60 years ago we were just as much in the dark about the Krebs Cycle.

(janie) I explained to you how depression and bi-polar works in some of the cases, I would say some people just have had some really extraneous experiences in their lives over time that they have never really dealt with too and then there are drugs that cause one to appear to be depressed as well. After all that is what this so called treatment does it sedates people or it gets them up, and some of it alters their real thinking in bizarre ways.

As for the diabetes example let me put it to you in a different scenario.

(janie) You are getting away from the diabetes so let's not compare this to that okay?

Say I had built an immunity to a virus but it's still circulating in my body would you say I had a disease then?

(janie) Yes I would and so would they, I can say that for a fact, the immunity is sometimes a result of that disease, they won't take your blood for transfusion in that case even if it is an immunity and not what we might think of as the disease.

I thought I was invincible but then I had a real wild night at a club and woke up next to a whole crap load of midgets. The doctor tells me that I got aids. The aids virus is destroying my immunity and I start experiencing symptoms that I had a previous immunity to would you then agree that I had the disease?

(Janie) Yes if you have an immunity to some disease and get it then you have it, but you have to have facts or scientifically reliable and valid evidence for a disease before you can call it a disease in the first place you see.

Or a simple cold. There are a million viruses circulating my body now as we speak, does that mean I have a disease?

(janie) No it doesn't, when it turns into a cold it is an infection is a simple infection a disease? I don't know I would have to study that more.

But what if my immunity drops and now I feel sick.....see how things are conditional.

(janie) no the pathological aspect is coming into play and your body is changing with it if you do not treat the cold the cold may or may not go away by itself, but it is not what we are talking about actually is it? poverty and abuse are not a simple cold or a complex disease now are they

Now lets relate that to depression, how much do we know about the illness to truly say it exists one way or another?

(janie) No you can't say it exist and I do say that it does not exist so I suppose that until you can prove me wrong I am right? However, if you look long enough and manipulate enough of the variables you can say or show that almost anything exist that does not mean that it is valid or reliable scientific evidence that it is based on does it, statistics can be skewed and if all variables can not be measured then that is what goes on in this, there are no crystal balls