The Wood Beyond The World Forum Open Microphone.

I figured I would start this thread for discussions on work we have posted, research, or general knowledge.

Those who post work should more than likely start their open thread on that work...then open discussions can be kept within the group...I would think.

Feel free to rant politely, offer opinions, advice, or ask questions away. I am sure someone will be more than likely respond.

Nick. ::cool::

I'd like to see some posts from people on their areas of expertise, that can contribute to the business of writing fantasy. Stuff like various methods of combat, skills like horsemanship, smithing, falconry -- the things that give the background and foreground their verisimilitude. We've all had life experience or done research that can be of value to others. Let's share, if not direct instruction, at least references for where we can go to get such.

I'd just like to mention that the DK Eyewitness books for children are great quick research tools for other cultures, or historical phenomena such as piracy, wars, etc.

Please post specific questions, so group members can pitch in with their suggestions.

My friends,

I must say that after reading/reviewing 4 stories so far, I am finding that we all have unique voices and storylines. I would like to encourage each and everyone to follow their voices. Well done to the group, one and all.

Nick.

Word of Caution to all the fellow Wooders....

Watch out for the leave group button...you will really leave the group. Can we maybe get that button on the far right side instead of under the group button. Not sure thats possible. Just a thought.

Hangs head in shame after learning the hard way....lol
Nick.

Wow, Nick, I'd have thought that "Leave Group" button would at least give you an "Are you sure?" warning.

Glad you found your way back!!

Yes, it nearly happened to me!

Well, about areas of expertise and such...one thing I think a lot of fantasy writers seriously lack is a knowledge of medieval warfare/combat. I'm tired of reading vague, free-for-all battles. I think it's necessary to have a good understanding of siege tactics (since sieges were the most common sort of battles), such as the different siege engines and their uses, i.e. trebuchets are long-range powerful, accurate catapults designed to bring down castle walls or fling a diseased carcass over the walls to kill the enemies by plague. And a lot of people don't know that battering rams were actually covered by a wooden shell to protect the soldiers wielding it. Don't forget undermining, which is digging a tunnel underneath the walls, supporting the tunnel with wooden beams, then burning the beams on your way out of the tunnel, and presto, without any support, the wall crumbles.
Also there were a lot of ways defenders could counter siege tactics. Through the use of machicolations (a part of the wall that extended over the rest of the wall, kind of like a cliff overhang) and murder-holes (holes in the ceilings of gate-houses through which deadly substances like hot sand and molten lead could be poured on attackers) defenders could turn the battle in their favor. Burning oil was a favorite method for bringing down battering rams and siege towers. However, to counter this, many attacking armies would cover their siege engines with animal furs drenched in water to negate fire, in which case defenders on the wall would swing grappling hooks at the siege tower and attempt to topple them, and the same hooks could be lowered from the wall and attached to battering rams to stop them from ramming.
My favorite is the defense against undermining. A defender would fill a bucket with water (I can't remember where specifically they would place it) and the vibrations from an enemy digging a tunnel under the wall would cause the water to ripple, and the defenders could then dig their own tunnel to intersect the enemy tunnel, and if they found the enemy tunnel, they could even fight their way out and in bring the battle to the enemy!
So, there are a lot of possibilities, and I don't know a whole lot yet, but my advice to everyone who incorporates battles into their fantasy, study up! Of course, there's still magic to factor into battles...I try not to make my magic overpowerful and an easy way out. What do you all think?

Thanks Andy!

I need to learn more about what individual combat is like. I've read history about how battles were conducted, I've picked up some of what you say about seige warfare -- but the experience of combat is something I've never been through. Nick (old SCA member) has given me some pointers, and I made a tape of some SCA combat demonstrations at MidSouthCon this spring. When I have more time -- when we get settled again in Albuquerque, I'm thinking of looking up the SCA chapter there. My sons would probably love it.

Most of my stuff is cloak and dagger rather than military.

I'm glad to hear a genuine interest in research. And I agree with you about using too much magic to settle conflicts kind of being cheating. Though, of course, if magic is a weapon wielded by both sides, it can be considered similar to any other weapon, can't it? That's pretty much the way Nick uses it.

Thanks for the interesting contibution!

Yeah, I like to limit the power of magic in most of my characters, but every once in a while a true master will come along to complicate things...usually on the side of the enemy.

Since none of us have ever been involved in real medieval combat, like with the intent and ability of actually killing someone using a sharp piece of metal, we can't really know what it's like...from research and common sense I know that it wasn't nearly as pretty or artistic as it's portrayed in movies and such...it's like, people were killed, and people did the killing, and that was that. Although I imagine the psychological consequences could be bad, like a medieval sort of shell-shock. I know enough about the technical aspect of medieval combat, like the moves and purposes of different weapons and pieces of armor, but I really wonder what the emotions attached to real combat were like. The history books make knights seem like stalwart and unflappable, but I bet people had some serious issues.

We've only seen the beginnings of most of folks' work here so far, and I'm curious:

How many of us are using traditional magic -- spells, staves, flashing lights, magic talismans, etc.?

How many of us are using traditional fantasy creatures -- elves, trolls, dragons, etc.?

In what senses are each of our projects fantasy?

What the heck is fantasy anyway?

My work is fantasy because a) it's in a fictional world b) magic and magical creatures exist c) the world itself is in many places scientifically impossible.

There are 2 kinds of magic in my world (1 flashy, 1 not so flashy): Elemental and Spirit. Elemental magic is the flashy kind, being mostly used in combat (wind, fire, earth, water). Elemental magic is operated on a sort of martial arts basis, meaning different gestures of hands, arms, feet, etc. control the magic. (NOTE: I came up with this idea before the Nickelodeon show Avatar came out. It's just a coincidence that Bending looks a lot like my Elemental Magic.) Spirit magic is unseen magic, like scrying and divination and healing.

I use pretty much every known fantasy creature, from faeries to satyrs, and elves (though I am trying to deviate from the perfect/immortal ubiquitous Tolkien elves) along with a bunch I made up. So, it's fantasy through and through.

As to what fantasy is:

One of the favorite quotes I have run across:

"When encountering magical events and creatures, the protagonist of a horror novel is horrified, while the protagonist of a fantasy novel is filled with a sense of joy and wonder. Horrifying events may happen, but the fundamental distinction is vital.

"Contemporary fantasies often concern places dear to their authors, are full of local color and atmosphere, and attempt to lend a sense of magic to those places."

I think of War on Error as both contemporary fantasy and transformation fantasy. American Werewolf in London would conform to both of these. The key difference of mine is that the transformation is voluntary, whereas werewolves have no choice.

My magic is from my perspective no magic at all. From the Buddhist perspective, only a delusional mind can conceive of a universe where matter can exist without consciousness. In the West, we tend either to be theists, who posit a creator god and a beginning and end of time, or we are materialists who believe consciousness arises from matter according to the laws of physics and chemistry. Thus we have eternalists who believe in spirit, and materialists who believe in natural law. The latter are seen by the former as nihilists.

Buddhism says both eternalism and nihilism are mere opinions, that they are two sides of a single coin called "relative world." My magic is in portraying a kind of consciousness that sees the big picture. Thus dream masters have, from a human perspective, uncommmon control of consiousness, so that they are capable of flitting between worlds. My Titans are especially self-centered, so that they can do what they do without compassion, use mind science like hypnotism without any sense of wonder. My bodhisattvas, enlightening beings, see glimpses of the absolute, and operate from faith and experience that there is more to the cosmos than we are seeing. Thus they are not surprised by other dimensions, or contact through dreams. They embrace the universe in all its manifestations. Through such open minds, I can show the reader the full range of of my imagination without apology, and insodoing it is my hope as an author to transfer to the reader both wonder and joy.

bill

Well, Bill, I can see you're equipped to appreciate the central issues of my fictional cosmos.

Yes, Leah, I think the Great Maker has allowed our paths to cross for purposes of spreading good in the world. We are enlightening beings attempting to spawn other enlightening beings. By helping each other, we will help ourselves and both exceed our dreams.

The magic is my world originated from spirit beings (Ancients), and how humans acquired them is actually part of the whole backstory. Generally the ability to use magic, and how strong it is, is hereditary and it could be described as having an extra, very powerful sense (sixth or seventh, depending on your beliefs) that you are able to manipulate. So in a way, magic doesn�t just exist for all to learn and control. �Seeing�, as Gableen does/did, is a particular type of ability but very limited in comparison.

I also use gestures of the hands (currently named: Waving), but this is specific to a particular band of magic users who are usually 'baddies' and doesn't appear until Book 2. Yes I use spells too.

I'm not using any traditional fantasy creatures within this particular work, although I hope the varying cultures that you�ll meet are just as interesting lol.

Netherron is a seeded planet by a race of very highly evolved space fairing beings. These being came to later be called, the gods of Netherron. They populated Netherron with all manner of creatures and beings from other world.

One of the races Netherron was seeded with was a race of humans who later became known as the Guardians. Only the Guardians could draw on the natural magic of this world, it having something to do with the fact that Netherron has two suns, a giant yellow and a smaller red. Over the thousands of years since its seeding, the Guardians interbreed with other races of beings, thus passing on the ability to draw on the earth magic. But only those of pure blood have the stronger of the abilities. In the Netherron of the current story line, there are no more Guardians, but the main protagonist is thought to maybe have Guardian blood. No one is sure.

The magic I have my protagonist use is mostly defensive because he understands there is a price to pay for drawing on this earth magic. He discussing this fact that he could use it to his advantage at times, and even does several times, but always for a noble purpose. The protagonist use magic to get what they want, uncaring about the consequences to them, their health, or others. The ol light vs dark set up, the light being the good and the dark being the evil.

I try not to make my magic so overpowering that it overshadows everything else. My protagonist even gets into danger and injured at times, because he does not use his natural powers, or rather learned powers. He's very mortal, and knows how others look at those who dabble in these mysterious powers.

As my tale goes on, he does get more powerful, though he does not understand how, and he also has to come to terms that others are paying the price for his survival. My the end of book two, he figures out what his destiny is, and knows no matter what he does, or does not do, he can not change it. But...he can stop others from dieing in his place. Most of this information he will keep to himself, even from his beloved mates and children. The important part is that he does not know how he is going to react when his time comes to face the god Torroc. Will he fight, will he not fight, or will he join Torroc. Alot happens in book 3.

Just a few thought on my magic and My world.
Nick.

Summer reruns or doldrums? lol.

It appears that our group is very busy this summer and that reviews and topic conversations are drying up a bit. This is natural I think because with greater daylight and weather we tend to be outdoors more, and doing our normal activities. Me included.

I was just wondering if any one has any suggestions on how to spice things up, or even if we need to. I think we have a very well balanced group here and I enjoy the banter and give and take.

Just a thought. Any others?

Nick.

I will mention that I am only aware of three people in this group beside myself that do any reviewing at all. I suspect the others have busy lives, or that they find my pieces too long to bother with.

However, I am content with the interesting forums, and I am especially happy with my constant readers (you know who you are). I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the energy you have given my work. Please know you have become a part of my work through your suggestions, and that your encouragement is like a wind at my back.

Bill W

Quote:


I figure it's the lure of summer's pleasures, or busy lives in general. I know I'm pretty completely engrossed in revising Of Two Minds -- with advice from you, Nick, and Bill -- and working with Bill on his War on Error. I'm still waiting for Loekie to have time for me on OTM. I've tried to do some group reviewing -- I hit Elise's piece, though I didn't find much to say in the way of criticism. I'm planning to visit Adam's new thing, and I know Michael has something up that I haven't read yet. And, Nick, I want to get back to your stuff too (book 2.) But I'm also still occupied with getting settled in Albuquerque -- and just enjoying being here -- walking the dog every evening, when the winds blow down from Sandia, driving all over town for things we need. We've seen an excellent 4th of July fireworks display, a good museum exhibit on Billy the Kid, the latest Harry Potter movie, and a Bob Dylan concert -- more out-of-the-house activities than we usually did in a year back in Louisiana. So I'm not as obsessed with the group as I might've been in the beginning.

I like it being open-ended and casual -- I figure when someone has a burning desire for reviews they'll solicit them. One way to do that is ask to be featured -- another way is to send everyone in the group a message when you post, or ask me to message the group as a whole (I can do that.)

Even with rather desultory participation we still show up every other day in "Today's Popular Groups."

So keep posting to the forum whenever you feel moved, all of you -- and whenever you have a new bit of work to offer, don't hesitate -- it'll be featured right away.

This is a great thread. I'm happy reading about everyone's magic, and tactics, and knowledge (or what they need to know to get a better nuance across in their writing).

I'm a cafe moderator now, so if i thought i had no time before (ugh) . . .
I owe many of you reviews, like loads, and i advocate for reading (how ironic).

I really like how we each bring a lot of different things together when we do our writing. And i am sure we will end up helping each other a lot.

Where's Loekie been, btw?

My quick rundown "Cosmos."

Began as a philosophical question years ago after reading Spinoza's Ethics in regards to his philosophy as a response to Cartesian Dualism. That's when i realized weather it is philosophy or the art of showering, i'm creative.

What if something completely different and apart and governed by different rules of existence found our universe and began digesting it?

I read a lot of Joseph Campbell, and not just his hero myth stuff (that went into making star wars) but all the myths of various cultures and the cultural imaginations he studies and how myth represents the experience of living life.

So i wanted to imagine a Cosmos, like in hinduism (bramha? william help me out here) where the universe that exists is the result of a dreaming "god." In fact his dreaming coagulates into galactic matter around him, like a shell, protecting him while he dreams existence in all its facets so that when it is matured and ready he can emerge from the shell (philosophers egg) as a self made god.

Everything that transpires within Cosmos happens in the microscopic. It's like you and I do not control our mitichondria, or white blood cells, i mean we are bigger than they and without us, they'd die -- in like manner i conceived the relation between You and me to an entity like a god -- we are part of something mechanical, yet, it isn't wholly mechanized.

So without ruining too much:
Whisper mages basically earn their abilities through a lifelong process of practicing clairvoyence only through dream consciousness, they aren't unified in that they have a school, they aren't a cult or clan but strangers, loners who find each other and unify because the things they learn have such monumental significance they can't imagine ignoring the potential harm. (kepe in mind the theme of duality like william mentioned earlier about that "coin") Whisper mages recognize consciousness, like electricity, where if a bulb breaks the light still exists. bulbs are disposable, electricity is not.

They work on creating whispers as dreambodies. When you and i dream we don't always identify with the dreamer, sometimes we think we are other people, and i imagine we are. we are disembodied, intuitive and are able to balance the fluidity of dream transitions and such. essentially, the whisper mage is both dreaming and awake when they are in either physical state. Life is a dream of its own, dream is a life of its own, and like a coin the duality coexists, but instead of picking one or the other side (like you and me might do) the whisper mage recognizes the value in both and spins the coin on its edge. like i tell me friends: whether you choose heads or tails, you always get the coin.

So, what about runes? haha. i won't get into that. but i will say they don't belong in the cosmos, they are not from this cosmos.

Worlds are not planets, planets are not worlds. Worlds are simply contained within the boundaries of the experience of life. if a community of people experience a single area, that is their world. the cosmos is full of fragments of worlds and where all these worlds converge we have what is called a Sphere (again, not a planet, but it may help to think of it that way)
Each Sphere has a dominate entity known as an Ethereal, of which i've only introduced three Palallio , Lanis, and Kayla. there are several more that may or may not appear in action in the story. Lanis however has no sphere, and that is part of his story, Kayla also has no sphere because she is not ethereal in that sense. She transcends the Spheres, she goes wherever she wants but doesn't oversee any of them.
The ethereals travel within our minds, or through consciousness itself, they inhabit forms that we are familiar with, like you'll see in the Ethereals Part one. Ethereals are distinct from dreambodies in that they are independent energies, indepenndent consciousness not dependent upon a dream of a single person, but rather entities fed by the dreams of the multitudes of convergences of worlds (sometimes i think of them as the Zeitgeist, growing with the history of human consciousness).

I use one mythical creature in a story yet to be told, Baku. he's one of my bad guys. i won't go into it.

Magic doesn't exist, it's all matter, dream and consciousness. the cosmos is a dream, and everything in it component of that dream, fragmented like the worlds, fragmented like our memories of our lives, oases adrift in the cosmic mind.

My story is about finding yourself amid confusion, fear and complexity. about recognizing the third possibility when only two are given to you. It is about the sacrifices of others not explicitly to propel the main character, but ultimately the main character's revelation that such deaths were not in vain and that they served a higher purpose.

Alchemy and mysticism is a large part of my fantasy. from the shade's jewels to the mixture of pieces into a whole, to the idea that life is a potion with all the ingredients already present and the meaning behind why we dream, what it means overall and not in the miniscule. that like the japanese tea ceremony the whole of the cosmos is contained in a simple careful demonstration of tea. and thus we have the individual, the minutest of monads within the most colossal of cosmos inevitably one and the same. and as i said once in a review to elise. If i'm the one and the center is everywhere, then so are you and you and you. we are all the one.