The Wood Beyond The World Forum Winds of Change

Thread for discussion of Andy's Winds of Change.

First, I would like to ask Andy what he expects with this story. What is his goal, so to speak. I feel bad about the review I left, and perhaps it would help me understand what Andy is looking for or trying to accomplish. Wish I would have thought of creating this thread first...slaps head.

Nick.

Andy, Instead of doing another actual review, I wanted to start discussing this in the forum.

This is re: Chapter 7.

I think the dreams work much better in your revision -- what do you think about it?

I'm still kind of iffy about the dialogue between Izzy, Autumn, Maria, and Philippe.
I know Autumn's infatuation with Dumath is important -- the conversation and interaction seems to get cluttered by Izzy, I think. It seems to me that in accounting for the meeting and parting of characters you depart from what's necessary to the narrative, which becomes strained and contrived. It's more like you set out to convey certain information and figured out a way to do it, than like the characters are following internal motivation.

I don't want to make this sound mystical or anything, but there's a sense in which, once characters are there and set in motion, they should move almost independently. At the same time their creator has to have a clear view about what's important to the story, and pick those aspects of their behavior to portray. There has to be a background, but it should stay background, and not sneak into the foreground. I can let my background clutter my foreground pretty easily too. I've cut lots of unnecessary business from True Minds as I've revised and re-revised the first chapters. A lot of that clears up in the later chapters, but I still have to watch myself.

What Bill has recommended is well worth considering. Ask yourself, in each chapter, or even each scene, what do I want to accomplish, have I accomplished it, what's here that doesn't need to be?

I have to admit to not being much of a planner. I don't have clear-cut ideas of what each chapter should contain very far in advance. I don't outline, but thrash things out in notes to myself and writing trial scenes. But I still try to figure out what's most essential, and stick with it.

So, my main difficulty in Chapter 7 is the conversation with Autumn and Izzy. As I recall, you very soon portray Autumn's infatuation directly, which incites further conflict for Philippe with Dumath. Do you really need to allude to this here, before the real action happens? Having the characters talk about it doesn't really seem to serve nearly as well as the action in which Autumn actually throws herself at Dumath, and takes his side against Philippe, and it doesn't really add anything to the impact. If anything, I think it detracts from it. The backstory about Autumn's contempt for the local boys can be made available at that point too.

I think it was Scribble who suggested that we don't need info and reflection about Philippe's gift of tableware to Maria, back in the first chapter -- just him presenting it to her can serve to show his devotion, etc. That's the same category of advice, I think.

It's a matter of pulling things together and tightening them, for the sake of their emotional impact.

Yeah, I agree about the conversation you were talking about. I need to go and fix that. I agree that maybe Autumn shouldn't be so direct about her infatuation. See, I have trouble connecting ideas between chapters. I'll write a chapter, set it aside, and start the next one without really thinking too much about whether it jives well with what came before. I need to work on that. Or...I could just write without chapter markings. But that's too easy and would probably just mess things up even more.
I did go back and change chapter 1 a little. I still told about the making of Maria's gift, but I didn't mention what it was specifically until he gives it to her. I intend this whole book to be pretty philosophical...in addition to a (hopefully_ entertaining stories, I want intelligent readers to come away from it with new ideas about life and living. The whole passage about Philippe working in the forge is, in addition to a character building thing, is highly symbolic of certain philosophies I hold about life.
I also expanded the part where Philippe and Maria look into each others eyes, like Scribble suggested. I didn't change the beginning, passive as it is, because it sets the stage, not literally, or even for the immediate events of the 1st chapter, but for the whole book...it's all symbolic....the storm, and the different animals' reactions to it are all reflective of the events and characters of the stories...and besides, i'm not sure I know how to make that beginning "active" without completely cutting it out...and like I've said before I don't like the concept of en medias res in novel-length works...it serves its purpose very well in short stories, like Adam's 'Cosmos' stories, since there's only a limited amount of space. And I think the scene where Philippe and Maria look into each other's eyes at the end of the chapter is portentous enough (especially since I expanded it). Of course I am biased and inexperienced so in the end I'm not the best judge of my own work.

We're all the best judges of our own intentions -- never let anyone sway you from following your vision. We also all need help, now and then, in implementing them.

Not every story has to follow the same form. David Copperfield begins with the birth of the narrator. Tristam Shandy begins with the protagonist's conception.
The Hobbit starts pretty much in media res -- slight backstory about what a hobbit is, then we're smack in the middle of the life of a particular specimen. Ulysses starts with a fellow shaving, and treats a single day like a 10 year epic. It is possible to write a chihuahua-choking saga in a completely naturalistic way, with the story taken up in a single immediate incident, and the larger narrative landscape revealed bit by bit, as the characters would naturally experience it.

There's no particular reason not to start your story with a set-piece about the world you're exploring and the conflict you're examining. It's a great opportunity to stretch your poetic sensibility in your prose. Story is story, however, and stories don't happen without characters, so realistic but significant portrayal of your characters and their behavior has to be a priority. Getting the significance to shine is often a matter of deciding what to leave out, especially when you've got a concept that's stuffed full of detail.

Though I'm not comfortable with outlining, I've discovered that when a story begins to come to me I handle it better, sooner, if I make notes of my ideas, sketch out scenes that come to me most strongly, hold myself to simple narrative rules, as I begin to do the actual writing. Once things get cooking, and I know the shape of the thing, the note-making isn't necessary. It gets easier to watch for crucial moments in the narrative as it comes to me.

One general thing I've discovered is that direct action tells more about characters, and moves the plot better, than dialogue-as-dialogue or plain exposition. Sometimes characters have to just chat, and that can be useful for backstory and foreshadowing and character-building in general -- but if the same info can be conveyed in a scene that mixes dialogue and physical interaction, especially when it's heightened and emotionally charged, either by conflict or the conflict's resolution -- the chat can be eliminated. That's why I think, in light of the interaction coming up between Autumn and Dumath and Philippe, the chat about this business is unnecessary.

I tend to think of a story as a movie in words. There can be more direct thought expressed in a written story (your philosophical elements) but the story itself comes across best if every scene has a point of it's own, and the seams don't show between the various elements of plot, characterization, theme, etc. A lot of meaning blossoms in the actions and reactions of characters -- if they're real, readers will think about them, and what their experiences mean, just as we think about ourselves and the flesh-and-blood people we know, and form judgments on the significance of our lives.


You're really doing that already, with your portrayal of Philippe and Maria. You just need to prune away some of the deadwood so we can see the beauty of the living plant more clearly.

On a side note I have heard a 'story' (it was told as one) that didn't feature any characters. Not certain on the title but it basically told the history of the world from the start to till present (focusing on hawaii so I'm told) as a story rather than a documentary. I also understand it was very boring.

Well, about the goals for this story.

This is actually half of the first installment of a series called The Frozen Crown. The other half is "Visions of Destiny", which takes place on the other side of the world. The plots and characters of each story eventually meet up and realize they have similar goals.

Anyway, about Winds of Change. Aside from being an entertaining story (the entertainment factor of this story, like any story, cannot be assessed from the first chapter alone), I insert subtle philosophical messages and themes in the work, mostly through metaphors and symbols. By the end of the story (and Visions of Destiny, which I haven't began posting here yet) the true antagonist of the series will have been revealed, and the end goal is made known. I have the whole book outlined basically in my head, but I don't like spoiling everything here so if someone wants to know out of curiosity or if by knowing the story itself you think you can help more, I can tell you in a private message.

About what Leah said, I agree and I see what you mean. When I think of the scenes of dialogue like a movie, I realize how unnecessary and kinda cheesy they are. People in movies don't just stand around chatting about nothing, and they especially don't just talk about crucial plot points out loud. I need to give them a little more nonverbal communication it seems.

I think the nonverbal stuff is there already, from what I remember of upcoming narrative -- cut away the cheese, if you will, and the genuine interactions of the characters will carry the story.

I revised the conversation. Dumath is now never mentioned directly, though I suppose some people might think of him when Autumn mentions her preference for 'older men'. The conversation now is more about an animosity between Maria/Izzy and Autumn. After that, I went and revised chapter 8 to line up with chapter 7 now, mostly the conversation between Maria and Autumn in that chapter. I went through chapters 9 and 10 and just fixed some things, like some minor word-choice things (trying to stay more time-appropriate) and italicizing thoughts. I hope the new conversation in chapter 7 works better...I think it does, but that's just me. Heck at first I thought the original conversation was fine, but at people's comments I realized it wasn't. So, we'll see.

Oh yeah, and I posted the first chapter of Part 2.

Oh, and another thing. Most people haven't read very far yet (except Leah) so this is mostly for her.

Dumath, though he may seem sort of one-dimensional now, is actually the single most complex character in the story. There's a lot more about him that will be revealed, and he is actually the most dynamic character throughout the story, followed by Philippe and Maria and Gertie...though Gertie isn't really dynamic, rather she shows qualities she's had all along but was concealing for a while. Just to let you know. Very soon I'll be posting brand new chapters that no one has read before...should be exciting.