The Wood Beyond The World Forum The Tales of Netherron, Book 1..

Hello fellow Wooders, ::biggrin::

This thread will be for posting of comments or discussion of the main/introductory body of my work at this time. "The Tales of Netherron, Book 1, Prophecy of the Child."

While the work seems to fall within the typical genre of Fantasy Fiction. Yes there be magic, dragons, fairies, and all sorts of beast and demons...but they are not the over riding theme, but mere tools of the Fantasy storyline. I am hoping to take this up another notch from the typical Fantasy Fiction tale. Most of this book can be read by young adults, but there are sections that I would rate for mature audiences. Do not worry, I never get overly graphic. Not for the Harry Potter crowd, but then Ann Rice's followers might think so.

I am very interested in flow, pacing, context within any chapter, and all the usual comments about proper grammar, sentence structuring and punctuation. I take all comments, good or bad. I might defend the stuff at times, though I have learned that reviews are all subjective anyway. If you ask a question, I will try to answer as best I can...and they will make me think, what did I leave out that the reader did not see? Anyway...I know my words are not holy writ...yet.

I hope everyone finds a bit of joy in the work, and I look forward to all comments and banter.

Nick.

Thank you Leah for your review.

Yes, I feel I am tighening it up and I am hoping to show more emotional thoughts and actions out of Nathin and the other characters in coming chapters. Something I have been working on.

In the prologue I am glad that you found the reasoning he would tell these tales to a crowd with children as part of his audience, acceptable.

In Chapter 1, Elderrons remembered comments, I had assumed to be from Nathin's POV. I put it in quotes, to show that it was Elderron speaking to Nathin past. Should I just not use quotes then? If I use italic's I am afraid of confusing the reader into thinking its being communicated by mindlinking.

Nick.

I think it works, as you previously say that he is remembering the comment. It is almost as if we are hearing the thought, which I like. Italics here will confuse the reader.

What seems odd to me is the exact repetition by Nathin after. A simple..

"Yes," he whispered his agreement.

..would do, I think. I agree with all other of Leah's points.

Thank you Scribbs,

How can I argue with you are Leah when you two beautiful ladies have offered me so much and increased my understanding.

Nick.

I think Scribble's fix for that Elderron quote is copacetic -- it was probably the direct repetition by Nathin that was actually bothering me.

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lol now, now Nick, such flattery will get you..... sweeter reviews lol

Bill,

Thank you for your review of Chapter one, and more importantly, for pointing me in the right direction on how to us MS Find. In just doing a quick browse through Chapters 1-5...I found so many Thoth Guard vs Thothguard that my head was spinning.

This tool will prove very handy in the future for all kinds of things. I even put it on my tool bar for quick useages.

Thanks again Bill, ::happy::
Nick.

Again, I want to thank everyone who has reviewed the prologue and chapter 1 so far of Book 1, Tales of Netherron.

Many have offered advice that I am still pondering and looking at. I have also recieved hints on how to use certain functions of MS Word I was not even aware of and this too has become helpful.

I understant that the Prologue is not to everyones taste, but there is reason for the prologue other than just as a device.

I have posted up to chapter 4 now and hope to be posting 5 and 6 this weekend for those interested. I will wait awhile before asking Leah to take the Prologue and Chapter 1 from the posted pieces to allow the new group members a chance, should they be so inclined. Also, with that said, if any members do not feel they can or want to review the pieces, ... as some have been doing so off and on for over a year on other sites...I totally understand and do not hold anything against anyone. Review at your own pace and when time permits, or even what you like vs what you do not like.

Thanks again to everyone.
Nick.

Bill and Leah have pointed out a weakness of mine that deals with the way I the writer think and thus write.

Redundant and unneccessary tags.

Leah has beaten me over the head for some time now about this, (among other things), and Bill is also picking up on this bad habit of mine. I just want to thank both for their insightful words and reasons on why unneccessary tags do not work, and can also take out of POV, become redundant, and slow the read, among other things.

Very good observations, very good advice, this grasshopper will improve.

Thanks,
Nick.

To Group,

Question concerning prologue,

Ok, I have about an even split on my prologue, those wishing there was more hook to draw them in and those who feel the prologue works as is.

Now, allow me to ramble a moment before the question.

I had an agent once before on this novel, and she offered me alot of good advice on how the publishing industry works/what sells. Fantasy fiction was her first sell, and she took me on because she said the storyline truly intrigued her as not being typical of the dungeons and dragons era of Fantasy, but still retaining enough familiar feel for the readers to draw them in. She told me that if I had submitted this story in the mid 80's to mid 90's I would have sold as is. But todays market is different. I was her last attempt as Fantasy fiction before she retired. No, I did not ruin her reputation. lol.

Anyway - that is neither here or there because the work did not sell, because I had too many other issues as many here are aware of. But one of the things she said that drew her in was the opening prologue. It was short and concise, gave a hint at the storyline, and set up the opening chapter. She liked the storyteller, and the fact that I was not giving alot of backstory, or world history before getting to the story. She also stated that from the prologue, she could tell that his was going to be a continuing series, and that there was a story within a story because the storyteller is someone the reader meets in the story. All from the prologue. Some of the response's in the rejection letters I have built a shrine too, have also pointed out similar comments.

Leah and Scribble's have both taken me to task on certain aspects of the prologue, and in my opinion, very validly. But they have also stuck with the whole book and I think they now feel, for what it is, it works. Could it be better? Perhaps - and that is where my question comes in.

How do I get over the 50/50 split?

Opening with a bit of back history is not going to work, becasue previous conflicts of this nature were 500 years back, and all but forgotten now. Starting with the Antagonist is not going to work to tie all three books together, like the storyteller does. The storyteller is a part of the story...as the readers will find out.
Its the storyteller relating this story, like the older Sinbad, telling of a younger Sinbad and his 7 voyages.

But, I understand that if the readers do not make it past the prologue while browing Borders, or B&N, or Daltons, or any other bookstore display...then they will never understand the opening serves a purpose.

Any thoughts,
Nick.

I think the split occurs because we are all different readers expecting different things. And then the writer in us comes up, tainting how we feel.

I know the difficulty with writing that first chapter, as we all do. So I feel some people are quick to ignore the prologue or first chapter and focus on the meat. I know this is going to get a flurry of reactions! ::suprised::

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That, to me, is the key here. Unless a book is recommended to me, the first few pages lets me know if I should continue. If I am not hooked, I will not go onto the next chapter before deciding to buy the book. Yet that is me, Loekie.

For me, what doesn't make the prologue work is the brevity, and you mention that. I agree with with your agent, that I didn't not feel in a D&D world and it would have worked way back when. People were more willing to give a book a chance, at the price it cost. Nowadays, a book comes out with tons of other books and details like the cover art, the first paragraph, etc. etc. become essential.

Let me give you an example. Iain Banks is one of my favorite current authors. He writes amazing fiction and science fiction. One of his best books, imo, is The Crow Road. It starts: It was the day my grandmother exploded. I sat in the crematorium, listening to my Uncle Hamish quietly snoring in harmony to Bach's Mass in B Minor, and I reflected that it always seemed to be death that drew me back to Gallanach.

Grandmother exploded? Yet it is a family sage of a multi-generational Scottish family that is not violent or nasty. And at the end of the first chapter, the reason why grandma exploded made perfect sense. Yet that incident has nothing to do with the actual story, but it sets the stage and tone of the book.

That for me, as a reader, I want to see with the first chapter or prologue. Setting the scene and tone. Let us know what we are in for. I got vague hints of that from your prologue but no specifics. Like I said, it felt vague and fuzzy. Great evil, victories and defeats. I am picking up a fantasy book, I expect that. But what is setting your story apart from the rest of the books on the shelf calling my attention?

That is why I review as I do. I am coming to your stuff as a reader that wants a reason to pick up your book. Not the writer that knows you know what is planned and what will happen. So you can be a little vague with set-up because I know the critical stuff will be coming.

I know the difficult of writing that first chapter. My first chapter for House Fractured has gone through 5 revisions. That is why I didn't cut you any slack, as I expect people reviewing my stuff. The reality is we have to first convince the publisher our stuff will sell, then we have to pull in the readers to actually put down their hard earned money to buy the book.

Years ago, the selection was not as varied as it is now. Your one little book now has to compete with twenty other books on the shelf when it comes out. First comes the cover, to get them to actually pick it up and open it. Then comes the first few pages to let them know it may be worth buying.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but it lets you know how I see things. The reality as I see it, which others may not agree with. Yet that is how I am approaching my series. And why I am still butting my head against the wall with that first f**king chapter.

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Ok Nick, a difficult question.

I assume the problem is that, for some of us, the storyteller about to tell us story is enough of a hook and for the rest of us it is not exciting enough.

(I fall into the category of the former - I love the idea of the story within a story - but I suppose that isn't relevant.)

For those of us who love the story within a story aspect that will be the same no matter what, so I think you should focus on the lack of hook issue. Why would it not be exciting enough? I had to take a look at your prologue again to consider this.

Your first line

�Well, what shall it be today children?� the old storyteller asked from where he sat on the fountain wall.

This isn�t much of a hook. I believe that when I first read this, the opening line was different. Since I am now familiar with the story, this opening line didn�t stand out as something I should draw to your attention. But if I look at it, it is quite predictable as to what is going to happen next. I suggest you consider not starting the scene at the beginning. Find something that happens later to open with and then backfill the rest of the info. A good place may be when the audience are calling out for their favourite stories, or when the young girl requests hers. I�ve always liked opening with dialogue.

Tension

There is not much tension in the prologue and no conflict at all. Consider how you could introduce this.

Characters

Maybe you need to make the characters more distinctive. The only one I think you can actually do that with is the storyteller himself though.

Story within a story

Maybe the opening is not dramatic enough as its own story. Although you hint to a storyline with the young redhead, it�s over quite quickly. Perhaps you need to establish a story that the reader would be interested in getting back to quickly.

A few suggestions, I hope they help.

Scribble

I bow humbly before my audience on bended knees, for they have spoken and a wise man always listens to his peers.

So...I have reposted an alternate opening. I think the hook may be there now, but unsure because of how close I am to the story. I do not want to loose the short quick intro, or the story within a story so I have retained some of the orginal while adding a completely different opening that I hope will be more of a hook, to make the readers say...hmmm lets see what chapter 1 has.

I would appreciate a look see and comment to those who sided with the thumbs down. Those who may have had no opinion, or a thumbs up, I would also be interested in if this is an improvement.

Arrrrr...he says, drawing the cat o nine tails across his back in atonement for his lack of aggression. Arrrrr...

Nick.

Nick,

I see Scribble picked up something that did not garner my attention.

It is apparent that the Storyteller recognizes the Stranger. Therefore to keep calling him the Stranger, you will need to make some sort of qualifying statement so that this does not appear to be an authorial oversight. Perhaps inject just after the recognition:

Well, he couldn't recall his name, but he knew they'd met, once upon a time.

bill

Still working on a review for you're new prologue but from what i've read on it I think the original worked better. The new one in my opinion reveals too much too early while the first one left quite a few things for the reader to learn about later.

Nick,
I reviewed you new prologue. I did not reveiw the old one, for I felt the second was superior. Again, I prefered it for the fact it left me with questions and it had an air of mystery about it, it hooked me. Where as the first simply left empty, just another tale starting with the old geezer sitting 'round the fire/tavern/stage type of start. Not to say those dont' work, I do enjoy these tales also, but I believe the second will draw the reader in more.

I humbly thank all for their comments on the Prologue issue. I may be hard of head at times, and yes, I do fall in love with my own work, but who does not? But I also know that my words are not holy writ until someone pays hard earned money for it, and even then it will be widely debated.

Again, I humbly thank each and everyone.
Nick.

Time for another series of questions on my style of writing, or the story itself.

First let me say, that like everyone else here, I understand that if we the writers do not interest the readers in the opening chapter, or if we bogg down in following chapters, then the readers will never learn if the following chapters get better.

I believe that writers have a plan for anything they write. They may not know 100% where the story will take twist and turns, but for the most part, we know the opening, the storyline and how we want it to end. So, now with that being said as my thoughts, here are the questions. Please note that these questions are not pointed toward any single review I have been given but a cumulative process that I have been thinking on and thought I would bring up.

1...How much time can a writer take in the opening to develope a character for the reader. Can a writer leave certain traits out and allow the readers to learn as more and more is revealed about a character as the story progresses.

2...In the opening, how many questions by a reader is too many questions to leave a reader about. Ok...thats silly but you get the point. We do want the readers to have questions, but do we have to answer those questions in the very next chapter. I am a firm believer that when a story has me asking questions, then the story is ingaging me. I am also a type of reader that allows the story to develope before I judge it. But...if by half the book I have more questions and no answers, I then start questioning the author. Just my own personal taste, I think. So does my reading taste or habits also influence my style of writing?

3...When does a writer take into account, a readers personal taste, if ever. I admit I consider my style to be easy reading, at least for now. The type of book you might pick up and read quickly on a flight, while traveling, at the beach, where ever. Others may be shooting for more educated audiences, or more...dare I say it without offending anyone...high brow readers. Ok...this is not a put down of any writer, or any reader. There are just different styles and different taste, both writers and readers. But as writers, we want our work to eventually sell, and therefore, the mass audience comes into play...that is what publishers shoot for anyway. So how do we take a readers taste into account when we write, or do we?

4...I have been told that my main character seems flat, unemotional, at least in the beginning, by several reviewers, and not just in the woods. I have thought on this and tried to step it up here and there without revealing too much about him too early. Scribbles pointed out a few issues on male/female stuff. Leah has pointed out some of the same plus the political thoughts/directions that should be considered. Others have said I cheat the reader of knowing Nathin's emotions. Not the exact words, but the points made. Is this true? I would love to hear from Leah and Scribble on this as they both have read the previous version and by the end, I think...I hope, that Nathin's emotions were there more clearly than in the beginning, which is where I truly think they need to be.

Am I making any sense? lol.

Ok...just some more thoughts, questions to help push me towards something I am not sure I may have thought deeply enough on.

Nick.

I want to reply to you quickly, while I have a moment.

I can see you trying to get a little deeper into Nathin in Chapter One now, with his reflections on his backstory -- they could be more his reflections, I think. More what he feels about being a foundling, being singled out by Elderron, etc. That would make the transition between the present narrative and the backstory smoother, too. You can convey the same information plus what Nathin feels about it, without adding more than a few dozen more words.

As to audience -- I think all writers with real integrity are writing for themselves, utlimately. They may have a readership in mind, but if the story isn't theirs, and the manner of it's telling theirs, then they wouldn't bother. Of course it has to get through to readers too, or they wouldn't bother -- so it's a balancing act. And that's where the real fun and accomplishment lie.

Back to packing.

Dear Nick,

Let me give a brief response to your questions:

1...If you can give us all the traits of your character in the first chapter, then you are writing cardboard characters and better stick to novelizing star trek. I think the main goals in the early chapter are to create sympathy for the main character; make reader feel sorry for his suffering. Then make reader identify with character by giving him goals and aspirations. Finally, use details to evoke emotions, thus garnering empathy for the character. These together should make the reader turn the pages. Fill out the character all along the way.

2...So long as the story questions are memorable, their answers need not be given in the next chapter or even until the final resolution. Just so you don't create questions and then forget them, thereby creating loose ends that lose author credibility. I know my reading tastes, which are dependent on my interests, certainly go hand in hand with what this writer eventually writes.

3...I write for myself. I figure if I would want to read this book, then certainly others with traits and interests similar to my own exist who, given the chance, would read it. My first concern is to write what I want to convey to people. I'm going to drop dead shortly; the money is going to mean nothing in the long run. What matters is how I might affect others. My audience are those who seek to see a broader world than they perceive, and hope that authors will take them to someplace they've never been but, seeing it, would want to be there. Or they are in a certain place and want to hear that others are in that place to; that is, some readers read to validate their own conception of the cosmos. By exposing my vision in my writing, I hope some readers will feel more certain about their faith, their insight into human nature. I think what a publisher needs more than anything is a well told, well written work. I think to try to guess what will be in vogue when I finish a story I've yet to start is futile.

4...I have not read enough of you yet to feel comfortable passing any kind of judgement as to the flatness or roundness of your characters. I do think you shouldn't worry about revealing too much too early. If you have an idea of your characters' growth arcs (for instance, if this is tragedy start character on top of the world and head him downhill), then you can decide what attitude a character will have from the start. I think if your character is too unemotional, it is ATTITUDE that you have to display. What is his attitude about all he has seen, does see, and will see/feel/conceive. Strong characters HAVE STRONG ATTITUDES and aren't afraid to display them by standing up for what they believe, for their truth, and this goes for antagonists and sidekicks too.

I hope that was brief enough to get through.

Bill w