The Wood Beyond The World Forum The Tales of Netherron, Book 1..

If you don't mind, Nick, I am going to cut and paste your email to me because some of the others might have some input on my review and your response. For those tuning in, I will quote myself, have Nick's response in italics and my response in normal font.

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I have had others ask the same question, but let me ask a question? How do I show that there is not much that shakes Nathin, its his upbringing which the readers will not learn about until chapters 3 and on. Nathin's character is one who never shows his emotions. Why? Because it gives away a fact to an opponant. Things do get tougher for him to hide though as more and more happens. More commented on this further down

You know that, but I don't. The first couple of chapters pulls in the reader. And there is a difference between not showing emotion and having emotion. I have no problems with Nathin not showing emotion, but as a reader, I am above that. I am not the opponent. We don't get into his head at all.

If you were writing from a POV of someone recording his actions, fine. But we are third person, omniscient here. Having me see him freak out at a sight, yet keeping his composure does not take away from him not letting the opponent seeing a reaction.

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Another question, does not the fact that she flys off before he can ask a question, and he feels that she is not going to return with an army evident in his thought? Maybe I do need more thought here, but he visions her returning with an army of pixies. The fairy keeps changing subjects on him before he can ask questions, and he is intrigued that she seems to know more about him, but understands that he has to ask the right questions before she will give him a answer and not a riddle. Or so that is my feeling.

Ah, he is intrigued. Not, I would say. If he was 70, worldly and battle fatigued, maybe. But he is a young slip of a man. Just an apprentice. He isn't hardened yet. He is only 21 turns old. No matter what training or what he has seen would make him so nonchalant when suddenly faced with things from legend and myth. This is not an everyday occurrence, especially for one so young.

And once again, you know the inner workings of your world, so Nathin understands he has to ask the right questions, but I don't. That only came together, a little, at the end.

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Ok again, your asking for more from someone who at this time is somewhat detached from showing emotions. But I do understand what your saying. My personal preference as a reader is to grow with the character as the author fleshes them out. I know you understand that as well and what your asking for is more, but not a history lesson. The thing is, I want the first two chapters to set up the first meeting between him and the protagonist, which is just one of several, and lots of questions by the readers on what is next. Not sure I have met that goal 100% yet.

Of course we grow with the character. And I understand you want to set up the first meeting. But be it Frodo or Thomas Covenant, from the onset, there was some emotion the reader could sense as the main story is set-up.

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True, it plays no part in this battle other than to show the reader that this person has power. Being an air elemental, once Nathin's mount slams into her mount, it blows away. Otherwise, if not, then those in the sleds would not have survived the funnel cloud developing from its waste down. And that was the point. But, its a power Nathin will remember later.

Looking over it again, I can see what you are doing. I suppose it goes to the part being muddled. I suppose with a little tightening, my point becomes moot.

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Ok, since this is in Nathin's POV, and he is preoccupied with his casting and his charge on the lone rider, how do I take the time to explain this? I think its chapter 6 in which Nathin finally gets to ask the fairy this very question, on how they came to be here when they did. Then in later chapters, Nathin and the Snow Cats become allies, so to speak. I know that questions are raised, as I want, and I do address those questions in later chapters for the readers. Is that too little too late?

That is part of the issue here. He is preoccupied with his casting yet we get all that detail. And throughout all of that time, I had no indication he was concentrating. You have Nathin finalizing his plans, but nothing is said that he is still focusing. until a few paragraphs later. Yet during this time, he is able to notice details. If he is focused on the lone rider and his casting, all the other stuff would be more vague. I'll get back to the questions in a little bit.

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Ok, this one does trouble me. As a very experienced horseman, and cattle puncher, this makes perfect sense to me. Nathin is charging out of the woods...Yes? He is concentrating on his casting and has little time to observe all that is going on around him...Yes? (In my world, you do have to concentrate on your castings, making sure to pronounce each word correctly, etc, which is later explained as he teaches someone the basics). Anyway, he falters, not having thought of this benign voice as being a female and one that was beautiful. But Dusty is still charging. Does that make sense? His casting broke through her shell of protection...so that his mount could do what a warmount does...take an opposing opponants mount out. The collision was more than he expected, and later learns why. Dusty stumbles and he hold on, even though he almost fell from the saddle. I am not sure on this? I will go back and relook at it. I know...its clear in my mind, but I have to make sure its clear in the readers mind from my words as well.

I suppose part of the problem here is so much is happening, I forgot he was charging the rider. Also, back to the previous point, he is concentrating yet he see so much detail. So he charging and concentrating yet there is a paragraph of description. Things, for me, just don't line up.

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Ok...I quess you did not get this part...he repeats the spell three times...looks at her and then when she laughs he turns and flees, a slight smile on his face. Once he crosses the creek, the turns and releashes a word he held in reserve. Yes, there is a blinding flash and then its explained that his previous spell did not fail. In chapter 5, the sorceress understands that he baited her, and he keeps doing it with simple actions, words, etc. But...I do understand that if a reader closes the book here, they will never get to the answers. So please do not feel that I am defending.

You don't have a slight smile on his face or him fleeing. That is not how I read it. He tells Dusty it is time to go, they race to the sleds to give some distance and then kaboom. Again I feel it is because I am getting little from Nathin. The blinding flash is not the issue here, it is I don't see or understand Nathin's motives. If he has time to tell Dusty, let's go, he has time to think something to help set up why he is heading off.

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One of the reasons though he ride off is that she is unconscious, a backlash from her spell. And I think I too would ride off before she comes too and perhaps find out that she is more powerful than him, since he took her by surprise. He and his master have a dicussion on this once he gets to Thothguard, on how lucky he may have been. This allows the reader to get into his head a little more and learn how confident he was at the time of his abilities.

Yet she isn't when he turns to ride away. She started to laugh and was reaching to her wand. If she was unconscious, his leaving makes sense. Go back and check it out, she is completely conscious when Nathin leaves.

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Hmmm, again, how do I give away something that is later used. The tree has significance as you point out, and he has lots of questions, but the glade, which is a sacred place, has been violated this day, and he understand it, and so shows her respect. Without knowing why, he feels there will be another time and place for all this. Perhaps I need to show that he is more anxious to get moving, and get those he helped rescue moving before the sorcerss wakes up, or the Raven Elves and Shadow Stalkers regroup. But more comes of his inaction as well in chapter 4, 5, and 6. So there is reason not to delve too deeply at this time.

I'm not talking about the tree here but of the fairy being jealous. Yet as quickly as it comes up it is dropped. And as I wrote, you have some time pass before they head out. I don't want you to give everything away but Nathin does not even attempt to ask any questions.

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Again, its all re-explained in Chapter 6...its where Nathin is asking the tree for the fairys name. If you remember, he was laughing earlier in chapter 1, of a vision of him going around asking every tree in the forest for her name. But, he figured it out...so the question is...do I have to literarly show that he figured it out, or allow the reader to assume and then have it confirmed in chapter 6 when he meets the fairy again. She is a total mystry to him, and he will never understand her fully. If he did, then her appearences would be diminished. In my humble opinion.

I didn't see the connection. Maybe other readers would assume it, but I didn't. And you don't have to show he figured it out, maybe just something like when he sees the fairy, a sly grin comes to his face. Or something that tells me that he was gaining something from that time he spent at the tree.

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I agree with this part to a point...this is introductions, and yes, I have to pull the readers in, have to have them care about the characters, etc. But that is where I use chapter 3 and 4 to give/show more of Nathin, from the eyes of others in dialogue, and his thoughts as well. I will have to think more on how to show, where and when.

Yet for me, there has been no introductions. I have learnt almost nothing of who Nathin is. Yet I've been with him when a lot has happened in a short time. The question is, wouldn't a reader be willing to wait until chapter 3/4 to learn more about Nathin?

The important thing to remember is I am reading this as a reader, on the bus or subway. At work when it is quiet. I'm not at home, totally focused on my computer screen giving my 110% to the story. Or sitting on my gallery with hours to give to the book.

That is why my reviews are as they are. So I'll stop half chapter when my subway gets to its stop or when the phone rings for someone to place an order. There will be a few hour gap between the end of one chapter to starting the next.

I see what you are saying. Thing is, you know what is happening, I don't. I am not asking to be spoon fed everything but I, as most readers, am impatient. Too much foreshadowing and deferring to explanations 3 or 4 chapters down the line asks too much from the reader, imo.

Your last point:

So far Loekie...I wounds are not unexpected and as you noted, things I can deal with easily by adding a thought or emotion here or there. Now if you had challened the plot, pacing, etc. I might of felt the sting deeper. I pride myself on the pacing, even in the transition chapters. And as for as plot, each chapter leads to the overall plot with additional subplots being added, even as others are resolved. There is some form of action in each chapter, even if it is not physical action.

That is all I see you need to do. So far I like what I have read but it isn't enough, just yet, to grab me. I know for me, as I am writing Tangled Threads, I try to place myself as a reader when I review my stuff. I review it on the bus, etc. etc. Not in the quiet of my apartment. Even when I write, it is in places like my pub or at work where I am constantly interrupted. This reminds me constantly the reader does not have the time, usually, to read too much in one shot.

Now I turn my attention to the rest of the gang here. What do you have to say about all of my points and Nick's counterpoints?

You can't get rid of me, even when I'm engaged in massive family manouevers.

Taking time for myself, as you advised, Nick, in my favorite way -- reading and writing and thinking.

I'll give you one of those grammar and style reviews presently (well, maybe in a week or so) -- for now, I'd like to comment on Loekie's grilling.

I was so pleased with how you tightened and clarified the action in this scene, that I wasn't thinking about what you could have done, but didn't, with Nathin's character. Now I can see some of Loekie's points, though.

Since all these creatures and so on are legendary to Nathin, there should be a little more about his astonishment at what he's seeing. Let him be as impassive in appearance as he likes, but a bit more impressed with the elves and so on within his own thoughts.

I'm also a little perturbed with how slowly things seem to move once the sorceress has been stopped -- I think they'd get the heck out of there a lot quicker, since she's only unconscious. I don't blame Nathin for turning his attention to the group that was under attack, but for not hustling them out of that glade pronto.

You have a few spots where attention to style -- the order of your clauses, in particular, some breaking up of sentences in a different manner -- would probably help even some of Loekie's issues. But I'll get to that once I'm through the rough part of this move. Maybe from the motel in Dallas, if the wireless connection works out okay.

Now, Calgon awaits.

Wow, wow, wow... I had no idea that Nathin is 21. In my mind he is in his early thirties! His behaviour seems like that of an older, more mature man. Sheesh!

Ok, I'll respond to Nick's questions first and then get onto Loekie's post later when I get in.

1...How much time can a writer take in the opening to develope a character for the reader. Can a writer leave certain traits out and allow the readers to learn as more and more is revealed about a character as the story progresses.
-----> My preference is that the main traits of characters are established as soon as possible. I prefer to have a basic understanding of a character as I travel through the book with them because I don't want to be surprised by seemingly out-of-the-blue behaviour due to a lack of understanding about the character. I enjoying seeing how characters react to situations that they find themselves in, which adds richness to their personality, and seeing how these situations develop them as people. I won't know what their developments are if I don't have a basic understanding in the first place. And even if they do behave out of the blue, their thought process should give an understanding of why.

2...In the opening, how many questions by a reader is too many questions to leave a reader about. Ok...thats silly but you get the point. We do want the readers to have questions, but do we have to answer those questions in the very next chapter. I am a firm believer that when a story has me asking questions, then the story is ingaging me. I am also a type of reader that allows the story to develope before I judge it. But...if by half the book I have more questions and no answers, I then start questioning the author. Just my own personal taste, I think. So does my reading taste or habits also influence my style of writing?
-----> I think the key is to have short term questions, mid length questions and story plot questions, and they will obviously span over different lengths during the book. As soon as one question is answered, a more dramatic and intense question should immediately arise and this should be the same for the goals of the characters. There isn't one formula for this though because everyone's book will be different, but I suppose the thing you have to ask yourself is whether the scene makes sense or is logical as a whole without that answer - which is hard to do objectively with your own work.

3...When does a writer take into account, a readers personal taste, if ever. I admit I consider my style to be easy reading, at least for now. The type of book you might pick up and read quickly on a flight, while traveling, at the beach, where ever. Others may be shooting for more educated audiences, or more...dare I say it without offending anyone...high brow readers. Ok...this is not a put down of any writer, or any reader. There are just different styles and different taste, both writers and readers. But as writers, we want our work to eventually sell, and therefore, the mass audience comes into play...that is what publishers shoot for anyway. So how do we take a readers taste into account when we write, or do we?
------> If we are taking into account what publisher's want, then effectively we are also doing the same with readers. Essentially I write for myself, but I am also a reader so, as Bill said earlier, I hope that readers who have similar tastes will be interested in my work.

4...I have been told that my main character seems flat, unemotional, at least in the beginning, by several reviewers, and not just in the woods. I have thought on this and tried to step it up here and there without revealing too much about him too early. Scribbles pointed out a few issues on male/female stuff. Leah has pointed out some of the same plus the political thoughts/directions that should be considered. Others have said I cheat the reader of knowing Nathin's emotions. Not the exact words, but the points made. Is this true? I would love to hear from Leah and Scribble on this as they both have read the previous version and by the end, I think...I hope, that Nathin's emotions were there more clearly than in the beginning, which is where I truly think they need to be.
--------> Hmmmm... its kinda true. You do not avoid Nathin's emotions completely, but you don't allow us to experience them firsthand. The very first review I did for you on mysp I pointed out the lack of inner thought you provide for us within Nathin and when I did that whole book review on urbis I noted that Prison Break method of shock tactics to reveal your characters, most often with your lead. Nathin has more events to react to nearer the end and so we see his resulting emotions, but we don't see his thought process or the build up. In fact I don't recall ever knowing beforehand what Nathin intends on doing when presented with a situation (and this is not to say we must always know, but to never know?). This alienates him to me, because I�m not with him during the story events I�m always just behind him. Having said that, I have come to think of Nathin as quite a composed man who keeps his cards close to his chest. The question is, is the reader underneath that barrier or not? If not, then you need to find a way to include us and not take so long to establish the basics of Nathin character and personality.

As always, please discuss with me if you wish.

Scribble x

As to the problem especially pointed up by Scribble in #4 above:

I learned from Bickham's SCENE AND STRUCTURE of the scene-sequel rotation. I'll give a brief description:

Sequel can appear as the leadin to a scene, or at the end of a scene. I personally prefer most often to end a scene in the middle of action, then begin the next scene with sequel. Either way it serves the following purposes:

Let's say we just finished a scene. The next time we rejoin the POV character (whether in the next scene or several scenes from now), we need to find out some or all of the following: what the last scene caused him to emote, think, and decide.

EMOTION can take the form of description (of the emotion), example (showing gestures, inattention due to excitement, etc. which allow the reader to reach his own conclusion about the feelings the character has had as the outcome of the previous scene), or discussion of the emotion (with another character, obviously).

Emotion leads to THOUGHT: The character now reveiws, analyzes, plans what to do about his plight, now that he has worked through the emotion, taking the time to think through the problem that confronts him.

Thought leads to DECISION: Reader sees the character deciding what to do, and this can be either short term (as in deciding to turn left during a car chase) or goal oriented ( think murder mystery detective).

Once character has made a decision, the ACTION OF THE PRESENT SCENE CAN UNFOLD, author knowing the sequel has made the reader a full participant who has had a taste of the characters decision-making process.

Sequels can entirely replace some scenes. They may be a sentence or two, or several pages. You might display the character emotions at the end of one scene, then do the thought and decision parts leading to action in the next scene. Just so all the parts you need to engage the reader are present, you can use sequel as a very fluid tool.

And obviously, if the reader is well informed about the emotions and thought processes of the character, then you can count on the reader having sympathy for the plight of the character and some identification with the goals of the character.

As i now read Loekie above, I have a few comments, some of which point back to my discussion on SEQUEL.

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It is the job of the narrator (which is not the character) to slip in a sentence or two to explain why he doesn't show his emotions. If anyone has a good reason for author not addressing such reader concerns using his narrator, I'd like to hear them.

Also such information can come in the form of thoughts, but must author always tell us these are thoughts? No. Narration can narrate, and let reader judge what are direct thoughts and what are narrative storytelling. There is no need to constantly distinguish between these.

I was under the impression that Nathin has had experience with legendary and mythical creatures before the book begins. Nick, am I wrong? I thought these were not such an unusual part of his life. And I don't think that young people can't have genius or be cool under fire; history is replete with examples.

Also, apprentices sometimes rise beyond the skills of their teachers; note Orlando Bloom in Pirates of the Caribbean.

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Again, this is the job of the narrator: Simply add a line letting us know: "Nathin wondered what interest these Snow Cats had here." Voila, problem solved.

As to the Dusty collision, seemed to me Dusty knows what he is about; he is not an automaton like an automobile that is entirely dependent for its action on the driver.

I think it is up to the author when to ask questions of or about the fairy. If this chapter is not the right time, then reader should trust that and concentrate on what author is giving, not what he is not giving.

Wow....

A lot of great thoughts here, more than I truly expectd. This has given me some food for thought.

Allow me a moment to explain. In my earlier drafts, I used the omniscient narrator almost exclusively to tell the tale, slipping in other thoughts and points of view, and confusing readers on who was telling the story at anyone time. In editing, after understanding POV somewhat, I took out alot of the omniscient narrators thoughts to stay within a POV.

I think I now understand more that because of the style I am using, which is a storyteller opening the tale, that I can keep the omniscient narrators comments here and there, but not those of other characters without switching POV. If this is the case, then yes...I can add the little thoughts and comments that will help to show more of Nathin.

I have been told by both Scribs and Leah, that some of my other characters are more rounded, there thoughts and emotions shown more. Which means the main character is hard for the readers to connect with. I have been and will continue to work on showing more of Nathin, without completely changing his attitude. In chapters where he and Elderron, or he and the Priestess have conversations, the readers learn more about him from others, and without the omniscient narrator, which I believe is better than the narrator constantly putting a line in here or there. But I do understand that readers pick up and put down books all the time, and may forget what they noted if its passive.

Bill, Nathin does not have experience with these type of creature, only in what he has read about them. I think its a valid point to have him react somehow, but not give away the fact that he is a cool one under fire. So to speak.

Loekie...you were right, somehow the smile on his face got edited out when he turns and flee's. Its now back in, along with a thought on wanting to put distance between him and this sorceress.

As to the mad scramble to get out of this glad, I have added that to the conversation between Nathin, the Priestess and the Corporal. Nathin's suggestion. But the Priestess will not leave until the few guardsmen with them that died, are properly burried. This will give Nathin the time to go to the tree now. The fairy is no where in sight at this time, as she will not appear to the others just yet, only to him. I added a little bit on that too so the readers understand.

I am glad I asked the Questions and very happy with the honest opinions and suggestions received. That is all any writer can ask for. It is now up to me to make sense of it all and move forward, remembering the lessons learned.

I thank everyone ....
Nick....aka as grasshopper.

And remember that its not only through conversation you can show him, but by other characters' observations and opinions of his behaviour.

I clearly remember the opening chapter where Elderron thinks on Nathin's intellegence in using a fog to cover his getaway from Thoth Guard and there is plenty of opportunity to show him to us through Ryzza's and Snow's eyes too.

Yes...my point exactly. But on one else is in the first two chapters but Nathin and its his POV through the first four. That is where my delima arises without switching to the omniscient narrator or having Nathin thinking of his own traits, which I do not believe most people go around doing. They know...they do not have to think about them. But in the writen world we do have to add these thoughts for those very reasons.

I don't think I have too much problem with Nathin once other characters are introduced and POV switches are made. Its just these early chapters and how flat Nathin feels to some.

Still, working on allowing Nathin to give a little more away through his actions and thoughts. Might repost the revision when I am happy with it and see if there is a difference in the read, in what is felt from Nathin.

Again, I thank everyone.
Nick.

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Most people don't reflect on their own characters, but they do think things that can reveal what they're like -- don't forget irony. In Chapter One of TM Wythe reflects that mind-work is easy -- she doesn't know that Magus Dovan is expecting her to penetrate a barrier that has stymied nearly every other telepath going. So, it may seem easy to her -- she's confident without being proud of her abilities. I know you thought I did too much of that kind of thing with Mathis in the second chapter, but once you get on a roll with a character, thinking his thoughts, it's hard to stop. You don't have a whole bunch of time for this with all that action, but you can toss in a few things that wouldn't interrupt the flow.

For instance, you could just show a little more surprise on Nathin's part at seeing the elves and those other critters. A simple exclamation -- "Impossible!" -- in his thoughts. Then have him decide that he'll have to cope with it without flinching.

I really think some of the difficulty is a matter of style -- being a little too indirect and wordy -- and I'll get back to you on that when I have the time.

Wow...me wordy....I think that is a compliment. lol. I look forward to that lesson Ms Yoda.

Nick.

Just an update,

I again want to thank everyone who has taken the time to review and comment, both here and in private messages. I know it may sound as if I am argueing or brushing aside some of the comments at time, but I do listen and look at the work to see if they make sense. I never discount anyone. Asking questions or pointing out what I think I am showing/doing and then reading the replies is just my way of operating to understand. Ask Leah, she more than likely could put a book together with all the questions I gave her during rounds 1 and 2. lol.

I have already started working on revising the early chapters to show Nathin's emotions a little more without revealing too much. Scribbles pointed out that throughout the whole book, the reader is always a step behind Nathin, never knowing what he is going to do, until he does it. I sort of like that, and its sort of what I wanted...but I think she has a point it that the reader never knows anything he is going to do. So that too I am going to be addressing, allowing the reader to share in some of the knowledge, but not all the knowledge of what he will do. I still like surprising the reader.

Not to rush anyone, becasue the reviews I have gotten so far have been very helpful, but I will be pulling more of the chapters down. Not sure if I will repost the revised chapters again or not. How many times can we read the same chapter over and over and try to spot the small or large changes made. lol. But should someone, like a new member request the opening chapters, then I will consider that more than likely.

Again...I thank everyone. You too Loekie, where ever you are....lol
Nick.