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Thread for discussion of Scribble's The Ancient Child

Yes, (Thank you Leah)

Please feel free to chuck things at me about this work as I post more chapters for review. I am happy to discuss anything at all, from plot progression to tools used and at times may ask opinions on various issues that may arise.

Scribble

Dear All,

Following the discussion that arose regarding POV in WWW's work 'War On Error', I wanted to ask those who have read Chapter One - Between Storms (or not read actually, doesn't matter) about a POV shift at the end of the first section.

After a selling an item to a Law Priest the section ends as follows

Quote:


Now obviously, the last line is not from Nemma�s point of view, and I debated using it because of the distance it creates with the reader from Nemma, but no one here seems to have mentioned it (and only one person from reviews elsewhere).

So, questions�.

Did you overlook this, or was it not a problem when reading?

Do you feel this distances you from the main character significantly?

If it does work, is it because it placed at the end of a section?

..or because of the long(ish) dialogue from the Law Priest?

Any other thoughts or comments?

Thanks very much to any who take the time to submit their thoughts.

Scribble

In fact another opinon I'd like - from those who have read both the Prologue and Chapter One please - is if you feel that too many unfamiliar words are presented in Chapter One. (Re; comments from those who have read only Chapt One)

I think that the Prologue provides an introduction to the majority of them, but I may not be judging objectively; do you feel I should dress back a bit and present them more gradually?

Thanks again,

Scribble

Scibb's,

The part you noted, where she turned away. Is it a strick interpetation of passive voice, yes. Does it take from the moment...no. To me this is where the Omniscient narrator steps in. It was a nice way to finish the scene. You just could not leave the poor guard standing there without some explanation. I think it works.

As to your word issues, I love Hjay, and a few of the others, they give a flavor of another time and world. Do you use too many at times, I am not sure, because I have come to expect unusual terms in the Fantasy's I read. What the writer has to ask, is do I you introduce the terms properly when needed or, does the reader feel like I am just throwing them in there? I think its a readers taste more than anything. But I have come to learn, that if I introduce a name, an object, a village, etc...I should always have something that points the reader to what it is with sounding like I am giving a history lesson. Overly difficult words, names, can drag the reading and even the story...but most readers just sort of imprint their own version of the name and move on.

Again, I had no problems with the word or placement.

Nick.

Thanks for your throughts and advice Nick.

The question of names and naming.

I think you handle unusual nouns well. It's important to particularize your world, but to do it naturally -- not step too far outside your characters' experience. Don't explain things, let the reader pick it up. I was interested in your monetary denominations -- I think I picked up on their relative values, pretty much. I've sidestepped those issues in my own world -- I just mention coins of various metals. My work deals with the relations between several nations, each with its own currency. In a medieval/Renaissance setting there wouldn't be any banks as we know them, with fixed rates of exchange, so the value of money is founded entirely on the market value of what it's made of. So Wythe has to negotiate with a merchant in Vaaseli when she pays for something in Ravellan coin -- he judges the quality of the metal. (The diplomatic service operates on account, mostly, but diplomats usually also have private resources when they travel.)

Anyhow, I think you're dealing with naming in a nicely balanced manner.

Thanks for your thoughts Leah. Money is definately a tricky one!

Scribble,

I have answered your POV question in the body of my review of your Chapter One.

Elise

Thank you for your review. I very much appreciate your comments and am glad that you enjoyed it. With regards to the word �Hjuy� I think that there is a difference with being over the top and being particular about the world we are creating. The fact that the Priests in this world have named their carriages and designed them more elaborately than the norm is a reflection on how the city is run as a whole. Further to this, even though a Mercedes is a car, its name, model and design defines it from other cars as does the name and design define a Hjuy from other carriages. I feel that maybe I need to clearer on why a Hjuy is different, but don't feel that I can do that in the prologue.

I have fallen victim to overnaming previously, however, and am happy to be challenged in order to see things I may be overlooking, so thank you. I hope you read on.

Scribble

Nick,

Thank you so much for your review. I very much needed that! I feel that I can probably shear a few hundred words off this chapter but it became difficult for me to consider what could be left out and what couldn't. I'd like to respond to your review in detail however, as I would like to get your opinion on some things as well as ask whether some things did or did not work. I hope you don't mind.

Scribs, went back and reread Chapter one just to reacquaint myself with the Ancient Child. The reader is introduce to yet a new character in this chapter and this one seems more intriguing, but I am not sure how or what her relationship with the story is yet, so you got me wanting to read on.

What do you find intriguing about Clisantha or is it the society that is of interest? My main issue when introducing her was to try and get across the kind of person she is. I'm not sure I succeeded, though, because she is the kind of person who would be particular about her appearance, even if she drenched � which is something you question below. What are you main thoughts on he at the moment?

As to your style, your writing is as visual as usual with lots of great descriptions. You know how to really put your reader into the scene. But this is also one of the issues I have with this chapter. Redundancy of descriptions and overly describing details where not needed at the time. For me, the opening three paragraphs are msotly a weather report. The parts about her dizziness and what she was doing is needed, but you keep going back to the weather, as if the reader did not get the picture the first time. Set the scene, introduce the characters, and move them alone... IMHO. Same thing when she arrives home, you drag it out a little as she explores her house.

Agreed. I hadn�t realised the weather was so dominant. And thank you for picking up on the bit where she gets home. Initially I tried to skim it, but ended up adding more and more! (Typical of me really) As this chapter is a led up to what happens at the end, as well as introducing the city, most of this could be left until her next chapter.

By the end of the chapter you drew me in though, as to who this new character is and who this other magien is, what he is plotting and how she will avoid him finding her now that he knows what she looks like. Again, I would have read on.

Thank you, but the Magien does not know what she looks like. He saw her memories not actually her. Can you identify what gave you that impression as I will need to amend it.

Now, here are some other observations, question, etc.

1...Tipping her head to the sky

Tipping makes me think of looking down, though I quess one could tip their heads upwards. Still, its a bit wordy... Why not just say, Looking to the sky,... " Much more direct visual.

Thank you for your opinion on this. I am aware that this is a description preference, and though I am inclined to agree, I will think on it.


2...but after a six-week period their bodies are removed.

Information without context. Why are the bodies removed, if the information is not important at this point, then why add it. Is the bodies removed for some ritual, or to make way for others, or even something else? Its a neat thought, but I wondered why.

The reference here is that whatever she doing at the grave (and I hope it is obvious she's not there to see her mother) has a time limit which means she has two weeks left. Is it really think it is impoartant to know why as yet? Could your curiosity on this hold for a few more chapters? ::smile::

3...and brown metallic buildings as it poured down their walls in crooked streams...

Wow...that is a downpour. I am becoming less and less of a fan of the terms as if, as it, as anything...though I think you can not get rid of all times that it is used, especially in speech or thought�Just reduce the numbers of occassions.

Agreed.

4...She arrived at Pellino?s Bar,

OK, "bar," sounds to modern to me. I am not sure when it first came into use, but think here in the states, we have bars, bar and lounge, sports bars, private bars, etc. Is your city somewhat modern? Perhaps. This may just be a personal taste issue with me.

Agreed.

5... a large cream windowless building .... Enormous gold-rimmed windows offered a glorious sky-high view

Ok, at first I said what, and not until later did I realize that the large gold rimmed windows were inside, but did not show the outside. It left me a bit confused to have both statements in the same paragraph.

Yes, this is one of the things I wanted to discuss. If i stated that the windows do not show on the outside, that would be outright telling rather than showing through the course of the story. And yet I do not want to confuse the reader. Hmmmm...

6...Clisantha started, before realising the lone

Started what?

Started. As in jolted or shocked, but not as strongly - 'gave her a start'. May be a cultural difference thing. Perhaps it needs to rephrased.

7...pleased she had worn her tailor-made pale blue jerj...

Why is she pleased she had worn this particular outfit only then to think about her hair which by all thought should be wet and plastered to her head as noted earlier. Just an observation.

Just the type of character she is. This should become clearer later in the story.

8...Turning onto her road she immediately tensed

comma between road and she.... her road, she ... You have several places like this where your starting the sentences out using a gerund (ing) and you need the comma because its two different actions occuring. turning onto her road...1, she immediately tensed...is 2. I think that is the way it works.... Ok...enough of that. lol (Blame Leah)

Yes, I agree.

9...taken away from the only parent they know

this is a past tense time issue, so perhaps know should be changed to knew or ever knew even. Just a thought.

Agreed on this too. I have had a bit of tense issues with this one - having to switch between present and past carefully depending on where I am in the text.

11...the infringement on his privacy already warrants a severe punishment

or.... the infringement on his privacy would warrant a severe ....

I like your suggestion, but she has already infringed on his privacy, not about to. This something I was also thinking on tho.

I hope these help scribs. Let me know if you have any questions?
Nick.

Yes, as always you have helped immensely, and I appreciate the time you have taken to read and comment so thoroughly.

Thanks again Nick

Scribble

Heres some of the replys your looking for, in bold.

Scribes wrote...What do you find intriguing about Clisantha or is it the society that is of interest? My main issue when introducing her was to try and get across the kind of person she is. I'm not sure I succeeded, though, because she is the kind of person who would be particular about her appearance, even if she drenched � which is something you question below. What are you main thoughts on he at the moment?

Reply...Someone in the driving rain, in a graveyard, trying to hide whatever she is up to, is always intriguing. lol. As to the kind of person she is, what I got is that she has been raised by her father, secretly training her with the powers she has, and kept from the Law Priest and such...for good reason. Not sure about her being very particular about her appearance though if this is her personna or just something she was doing this day...for appearence sakes.

Thank you, but the Magien does not know what she looks like. He saw her memories not actually her. Can you identify what gave you that impression as I will need to amend it.

Reply...You noted, I believe, that she realized he could see her. I took that to mean that he could visually or mentally with his abilities see her or her spirit. Either way, I got the impression that he was searching her memories to find out who she was now that he had an image. Perhaps just noting that she realized he detected or sensed her, someone invading his space...or something like that.

2...but after a six-week period their bodies are removed.

Information without context. Why are the bodies removed, if the information is not important at this point, then why add it. Is the bodies removed for some ritual, or to make way for others, or even something else? Its a neat thought, but I wondered why.

The reference here is that whatever she doing at the grave (and I hope it is obvious she's not there to see her mother) has a time limit which means she has two weeks left. Is it really think it is impoartant to know why as yet? Could your curiosity on this hold for a few more chapters? ::smile::

reply...Yes, I got the drift that she really was not there to visit her mothers grave, but was using it as an excuse. Will my curiosity hold for a few more chapters, Yes. I think most readers will mark this as one of those questions they will be looking for the aswers to later. Just wanted to point this out to you...and appearently this time period is relevant.

3...and brown metallic buildings as it poured down their walls in crooked streams...

Wow...that is a downpour. I am becoming less and less of a fan of the terms as if, as it, as anything...though I think you can not get rid of all times that it is used, especially in speech or thought�Just reduce the numbers of occassions.

Agreed.

Question...are the building really made out of metal, or is it just a color you were going for. Whole buildings whose skins are covered in metal would sort of indicate very advanced metalluragy and foundaries. Not to mention great mines from which to get the metals. Just an image that I was thinking on. from that one word.

5... a large cream windowless building .... Enormous gold-rimmed windows offered a glorious sky-high view

Yes, this is one of the things I wanted to discuss. If i stated that the windows do not show on the outside, that would be outright telling rather than showing through the course of the story. And yet I do not want to confuse the reader. Hmmmm...

Reply...Not sure its really neccessary as I noted I was only confused at first but got the drift of what your trying to show later. Still, a little clarity would lesson the confusion. Perhaps give these type of windows a special name...dream vision windows.

On a side noted, your tables and chairs in the bar are made out of glass, very detailed and complex foundaries and expensive I would assume. Is this what your going for with this city. One of advance technology, wealth and power?

6...Clisantha started, before realising the lone

Started. As in jolted or shocked, but not as strongly - 'gave her a start'. May be a cultural difference thing. Perhaps it needs to rephrased.

reply...yes this is one of those things that editors will have to make a call on. For me, started means in the progress of, or happening. I use Startled, which can mean shocked or worried, anxious, troubled, upset. So editors in the UK, might accept started, but here in the US, they might want to have to change the meaning so some idiot like me is not going...started...started...what did she start...did I miss something. lol.

7...pleased she had worn her tailor-made pale blue jerj...

Why is she pleased she had worn this particular outfit only then to think about her hair which by all thought should be wet and plastered to her head as noted earlier. Just an observation.

Just the type of character she is. This should become clearer later in the story.

reply...my point is that you do not show us that she is pleased because of who she is. I had assumed it was because of who she met by accident, happy to be making a good impression to someone who could give her information she needs which becomes appearent later. To this point, I have not gotten the message that she cared this much about her looks. I know she cares more about whatever she is up to and remaining undiscovered, but I did not get the impression that she was vain. To me, a vain person would draw attention where not wanted. If you see my point.

I hope these further help. Once again, if you have question message me or ask here. Leah is a good one on the tense issues.

Nick.

Reply...Someone in the driving rain, in a graveyard, trying to hide whatever she is up to, is always intriguing. lol. As to the kind of person she is, what I got is that she has been raised by her father, secretly training her with the powers she has, and kept from the Law Priest and such...for good reason. Not sure about her being very particular about her appearance though if this is her personna or just something she was doing this day...for appearence sakes.

Thank you.

Reply...You noted, I believe, that she realized he could see her. I took that to mean that he could visually or mentally with his abilities see her or her spirit. Either way, I got the impression that he was searching her memories to find out who she was now that he had an image. Perhaps just noting that she realized he detected or sensed her, someone invading his space...or something like that.

Thank you for explaining that. What is actually happening is, at first he senses her and then when he merges with her mind, he can feel her. But when I wrote 'He could see her', I was referring to the fact that his eyes locked onto where he could sense the pull of her mind, which is where she was, but from her point of view he could 'see' her because no one usually looks directly at her while she is in this form. Wow, I just realised that was difficult to explain!! I shall look to clarify it. Thanks.

reply...Yes, I got the drift that she really was not there to visit her mothers grave, but was using it as an excuse. Will my curiosity hold for a few more chapters, Yes. I think most readers will mark this as one of those questions they will be looking for the aswers to later. Just wanted to point this out to you...and appearently this time period is relevant.

Thank you.

Question...are the building really made out of metal, or is it just a color you were going for. Whole buildings whose skins are covered in metal would sort of indicate very advanced metalluragy and foundaries. Not to mention great mines from which to get the metals. Just an image that I was thinking on. from that one word.

No, they look metallic but they are not made from metal. I was debating on using that word. One of the sects within the Magien structure deals with using/experiementing with magic to enhance natural materials. Alchemy, in basic terms. Because of this the city uses new and unconventional materials. This will be explained more later. When Nemma views the city for the first time other details about the city will become more apparent so I hope that word won't put readers off.


Reply...Not sure its really neccessary as I noted I was only confused at first but got the drift of what your trying to show later. Still, a little clarity would lesson the confusion. Perhaps give these type of windows a special name...dream vision windows.

On a side noted, your tables and chairs in the bar are made out of glass, very detailed and complex foundaries and expensive I would assume. Is this what your going for with this city. One of advance technology, wealth and power?

Yes, although not with advanced technology as such, but more of the kind of thing I mentioned above. This is the only Magien city (more explained later in the book) and so it has ended up that way. But remember this the most popular bar in Torak at the moment as the result of the windows. All the high-brow people attend regularly. There are not many other drinking houses that are so devinely furnished. Again, this will be made clearer later.

reply...yes this is one of those things that editors will have to make a call on. For me, started means in the progress of, or happening. I use Startled, which can mean shocked or worried, anxious, troubled, upset. So editors in the UK, might accept started, but here in the US, they might want to have to change the meaning so some idiot like me is not going...started...started...what did she start...did I miss something. lol.

lol Actually I started reading your new chapter one (will review at the weekend) yesterday and saw the same word used in the same context, but phrased differently - "woke with a start". I will try and rephrase it if I can find a way.

reply...my point is that you do not show us that she is pleased because of who she is. I had assumed it was because of who she met by accident, happy to be making a good impression to someone who could give her information she needs which becomes appearent later. To this point, I have not gotten the message that she cared this much about her looks. I know she cares more about whatever she is up to and remaining undiscovered, but I did not get the impression that she was vain. To me, a vain person would draw attention where not wanted. If you see my point.

Yes, thank you for pointing this out, I agree.

I hope these further help. Once again, if you have question message me or ask here. Leah is a good one on the tense issues.

Yes, you have, though I am now concious that most of my replies above say 'will be explained later, will be explored later, will become clearer later'. I hope things are not too vague! Thanks for your time and explainations, Nick.

Scribble

Always a pleasure Scribs,

I anxiously await #3.

Nick.