The Wood Beyond The World Forum Winds of Change

If anyone feels like discussing or saying anything about my story Winds of Change, this is the place to say it.

Although there are only 6 chapters posted at the time, I actually have finished 5 more, but I'm waiting to put them up after I'm done editing and revising chapter 7 (MAJOR issues w/ this chapter...it's taking a long time) so, there will be more eventually.

I appreciate all the thoughtful and in-depth reviews I've gotten about chapter 1. I just don't get why everyone thinks that there has to be some big thing in the first chapter or whatever. Since when has a novel revealed it's purpose in only the first chapter? No novel I've ever enjoyed has done this. Like Steinbeck's 'East of Eden', and 'The Lord of the Rings', and even Jordan's 'The Wheel of Time' books don't reveal the books' purpose or even really introduce a major conflict in only the first chapter. I realize the concept of en medias res is really popular nowadays, and is the unwritten standard for how novels should start, but I don't see it that way. I would rather develop the characters first, and show them in a normal light, THEN introduce the conflict...after all it's the characters that are the meat of the story, not the conflict itself. Perhaps I should make the first half of the chapter a prelude/prologue or something, and maybe take the first chapter into the 2nd chapter a bit. But I don't think I'll be omitting anything, ESPECIALLY the first half of the chapter...every event and thing in it is symbolic/metaphoric for people/events in the book. Also one last thing...please remember this is going to be a very long book (at LEAST 40 chapters) and it's the first in a series, and technically it's only half of the first installment...the other half is the story 'Visions of Destiny', which I will hopefully begin posting up here soon. So...sorry, no instant gratification in this story. But I will consider revising the 1st and 2nd chapters to make it more interesting. Thanks to everyone who reviewed it. Wow, that was a lot longer than I thought it would be...so I suppose in addition to my story, you could discuss the pros/cons of en medias res here, and character driven vs. plot driven stories...

Well, off to review some stories.

Andy:

I'm totally in favor of your approach, in theory. It's a harder way to go, though.

I'm not against the introductory stuff about the natural world, per se. I think it should be tightened down to the utmost, though. I think I'd almost look at it like a poem, where every rhythm of every sentence, and every sound of every word has to count and be perfect. Have you tightened and shaped your introductory material entirely to your satisfaction?

For your reference -- the opening of the first chapter of Mark Helprin's The Winter's Tale -- definitely poetic, not terribly narrative, certainly devoid of dialogue -- but essential to the mood and themes of the story. And executed brilliantly.

Regarding LoTR -- first chapter "A Long Expected Party" does indeed show the hobbits about their normal lives, but it also contains some pretty stiff foreshadowing before its over.

I hope you won't be offended when I mention that you're young -- I don't mean it as a dig of any kind, but as a kind of praise -- you've got lots of time to craft this epic idea of yours, and the conviction and will to do a great job with it. And you can write other things to get your foot in the door with publishers, too. Old warhorses like Nick and me, we've got our pet stories, and not a whole lot of time left to get them on paper and into print -- we wasted our youth, perhaps -- so we tend to think in terms of cutting to the chase -- though we want to craft everything the best we can too, and stay faithful to our own visions, etc. Keep at your own path, by all means -- just be careful that you don't excuse yourself from good pacing and plotting because you're concentrating on the characters.

Yeah, you make some good points. The only thing I hate is when people say that since I'm young I must not be smart enough or don't have enough experience to write anything with value or substance. That's the only thing that ticks me off. But yeah, I should tighten the beginning down...and I'm sure I could probably put some foreshadowing in there. And I read back over LotR ch. 1, and I did see some foreshadowing at the end.

I've spent most of my time on this story, and creating this world, and writing a few poems on the side. I think maybe it would be smart to take a short break to write something else...I was thinking about writing some short stories about the characters in WoC, or maybe something that isn't even fantasy at all. Also, I'm entirely stuck on the revisions of Chapter 7. You reviewed it on urbis, it's the one about the morning after the knight's death. I'm just entirely stuck on it. I know what needs to be done, and I know the chapter really doesn't fit and isn't believable and needs serious revision...but I just can't do it!

When you get to an impasse -- give it a rest. I've been doing that with my revisions of "Seduction" -- also with the next revised chapter of TM. I feel the answers bubbling up, now, and soon I'll be ready to deal with them.

I like the idea of short stories about the characters. Be warned -- that's the way "The Seduction" started, and first it expanded into a 25,000 word novella, and now it's evolved into a 130,000 word novel. I'm still thinking about a short story for the TM villain, so I have more of an idea, for myself at least, about his motiviation. Young Valmur, something that shaped him when he was kid and could have turned out differently, under different influences. I can never keep a short story under control, however.

Youth is a great advantage -- you have time and energy that middle aged people don't have. I do comfort myself with the fact that Tolkien was in his mid-forties when LoTR was published. Being young is no obstruction to understanding human nature, which is the most important quality for any kind of storytelling.

Leah,

I will take the old warhorse as a compliment.

Andy,

Youth has its advantages. Don't ever knock your age, enjoy it. I think that when people say that your age you do not know whatever it is they are telling you that you do not know... wow..Strunk would hate that sentence,...anyway, more than anything I think they are talking life experiences, and not your writing. But that is only partially true.

A good writer is also a good observers. Practical experiences do come into a storyline and a reader can immediately understand its believable. But how many lady writers of Fiction have ever held a great sword, wore 90 pound of armor, and take a ringing shot up side the helm. Not very men have either. The point being, if your a good observer, you can translate those observations into moods and scene, and settings and action.

I have never walked girders of a 60 plus story high rise, but I bet I can tell you what it feels like because I have been around enough guys and listened to their stories.

Never spent all night in a bordello with...no wait...no.. I haven't, but I could write about it...(Honest Leah...I have not.)

Christopher Palloni is being critisized for his 2nd book because many of his readers say the romance is unbelievable, and stilted. NO offense to you Andy...but Palloni was only 18 when he wrote the second book. Home schooled Mormon...what does he know about romance? Now...if he was 30 or 40 and still writing that same type of scene...then I would say that he had not progressed as a writer.

I started the tales of Netherron when I was in my early thirties. A short story here, a short story there, then 5-10 chapters...put down, start again in a different direction. Put down again. Not until I hit 50 did I decide to get somewhat serious. Today... the Tales of Netherron are not the same tales I started out with at 30...thank the gods.

Don't sweat a pause in the story. My character go to work with me...some of the best dialogue I write is in the car on the way to or from work. I even dream my storylines at night...is that not pathetic...beautiful red haired lady in my life and I am dreaming about these damn tales. lol. So you see, I have to get them out...and they have to be better than not. Otherwise my characters are going to haunt me in the grave and afterlife.

Nick.

Quote:


I included myself in that appellation, you'll notice.

Just a side comment on your chapter 1. It seems rather nice over all and no you don't have to start off by getting right into the story you can take some time just to introduce the characters etc. Also just me or is your blacksmith a bit reminicient of 'Durik' from David Eddings work in personality? Could just be me or just how early it is in the story.

I think I've only had one reviewer tell me I'm too young to properly understand something, but then he also thought I was male and based his whole review on those assumptions, so he doesn't count! lol

The thing is, I know that there ARE things I'm too young to understand, just as I know there are things I'm too old to understand (according to my 14 year old sister!). Its all relative. But I agree that being able to obsorb detail and other people's experiences requires effort and attention in order to present it in a believable way. And that's on top of being able to write well. Like most things, practise makes perfect. I know there are things I can improve on, and I relish the fact that I will improve over the coming years.

With regard to your chapter 1 Andy, as Tealeaf says, there is no major isssue with it in my opinion. It does as you intend and shows us the characters/animals in their natural daily lives. As we discussed before I think the foreshadowing of the tension between the couple could be bigger but other than that I think its just a matter of re-arranging the information so that the reader doesn't know everything first off.

For example, you don't need to tell us straight away that Phillipe is bringing home cutlery for his wife. We could find out when she finds out. The only thing this changes is the scene being predictable, and gives you the opportunity to make it bigger.

Obviously we shall continue to advise and learn from each other and I think our diverse writings styles, experiences and ages will provide a solid base for that to happen.

Scribble.

Andy

Having read the first part of Winds of Change, chapters 1-10, I now feel a little more qualified to comment here on your work. What I am going to give you is a synopsis of what "I" the reader got as well as the overall wish list I would love too see you work on.

1...Over all story, very intriguing and enjoyable. I enjoy the world you have created and the storyline keeps me thinking on what is going to appear next with your two main protagonist. AS to your antagonist, up to this point we do not know much about him, but he appears overconfident, overbearing, and a jerk... But that can be said about anyone. lol. Even the protagonist of a story. The one point on this I will say is a quote from Dwight Swain, your story is only as good as your protagonist. A strong protagonist, a strong storyline. A weak protagonist, a weak storyline. Make your protagonist memorable and the storyline will pick up dramaticly.

2...Pacing. You have spent 10 chapter setting up the main protagonist characters and I can see they are very caring and thoughtful people. Philippe seems to have inner issues that are only now coming to the surface. Good. Maria, something magical or religious is occuring with her, and the readers are unsure, just like Maria is unsure. But I find Maria to be a rather weak person in character in general. Typical female stuff, I think. Its rather hard to explain, but I have yet to find a feature about her that sets her apart. Right now...Autumn seems like a more interesting character because we know her character. I too have had trouble showing Nathin's character at times and am constantly adding bits for the readers. I know him, I know what he is going to do, think, not do, but I have to becareful in fully showing all this to the reader, and yet hold back enough to keep him mysterious. Same thing with Maria I think.

3...POV, ok, I know we have talked about this, but you drift in and out of POV and the all knowing storyteller. Many times, in places where not needed. I would love to see you develope the POV more to a central POV within any scene and only use the storyteller during transitions, set-ups, opening, closings, that sort of thing. There are many times you use the storyteller where he was not really neccessary and I had to ask myself who is telling me this. It will often times cause the reader to go back thinking they missed a pov shift or something. And while this is both a preference between the author and the writer, it is also something the publishers are looking at. Trust me. My first several versions of TON had the omniscient narrator all over the place, adding his litte two cents worth of observations and thoughts when they were not needed. I actually had a publisher comment that this is one of the reasons they were turning it down, and try again when fixed. Sighhhh.

4...Scene, Like I noted before, would love to see your expand some of your visuals to include more of the sense's, like smell and such. There are times where too much drags a story, but when you gloss over a sitting, your cheating the readers out of the enviroment your creating. It does not take much to expand these scenes. A sentence here and there on textures of the cloth, the way the town looks, what the houses and shops are made of. You do great with the weather, now add that to the rest of the scene and you got me hooked.

5...Grammar and such...your fairly good with grammar choices and punctuation. I would suggest that there are places where its the structure of what is being said. I noted many in the reviews, so you know what I am talking about. But in the editing its just a matter of rearranging where the words / sentences are formed and placed within the context of the scene.

Over all Andy, I think this is a good mid draft of the work, and it does still seem to be a work in progress, so take everything I said as meant to help and not as a firm rule. I hope this helps and would love to see others catch up and comment on what they enjoy or see that perhaps needs tweeking. Its how we all improve...feedback.

I will catch up with the rest once you post more. If you want to discuss any of this, message me or bring it up here.

Nick.

Thank you Nick, for all your thoughtful observations and helpful suggestions. I agree with you on all that you've said. The only problems now are personal ones, such as...

Detail. In the past, I'd tended to write lots of detail, "long-winded and overly poetic" as some of my critics said. So then I tried to cut back...maybe too much. Maybe it's time to start putting more detail back in. Though not everywhere, just in certain strategic spots, like you'd mentioned in your reviews.

POV. I do agree now about the POV stuff, and I'll try to stick with a certain POV through each scene.

Maria. I suppose I was thinking too narrowly about her when creating her character...she's presented as a very strong woman, but only when Philippe is there. I was trying to make it appear that she really isn't that strong at all, not by herself, that Philippe is sort of her crutch. When he's gone, she's going to have to find personal strength from a different source.

Pacing of the story. I know that a whole lot of people don't like it when writers take a long time to set up and introduce things. I'm still sticking to my rationale of character being paramount, more important than plot...characters are not plot devices, rather plots are character devices. The story itself is about the characters living through extraordinary circumstances...therefore I believe I must present the characters in a solidly normal light before throwing them into the unusual. Camera focus is centered on the characters while the plot and background pass by behind them, not the other way around. As long as the plot is interesting enough to make readers want to read more at all, I think I've done my job. And trust me, things will move MUCH more quickly in the remaining parts, almost too quickly for some people.

Now that I've gotten so much helpful feedback on part 1, I feel safe that I can implement those suggestions and finally move on to the real bread and butter of the story. Hopefully, once readers get into the fast-paced plot, they'll forget about the slow beginning or at least appreciate the time I took to set things up.

I feel I must apologize for not being very active in reviewing or submitting work this summer. I've been busy with work, and now I'm busy with preparations for going back to school...but hopefully after this month I'll be able to participate more since I'll be all settled in at school and back into a routine.

[quote=Andy Kerstetter]Thank you Nick, for all your thoughtful observations and helpful suggestions. I agree with you on all that you've said. The only problems now are personal ones, such as...

Detail. In the past, I'd tended to write lots of detail, "long-winded and overly poetic" as some of my critics said. So then I tried to cut back...maybe too much. Maybe it's time to start putting more detail back in. Though not everywhere, just in certain strategic spots, like you'd mentioned in your reviews.

My problem was the opposite, my details tended to be list like in many area's. I think from my mechanical background. But once things were pointed out to me, I understood and I am still adding bits and pieces. I say overwrite on the draft, then edit out what is not needed and add where lacking. I think its easier to edit down sometimes than to constantly go back and add. Just my personal opinion.

POV. I do agree now about the POV stuff, and I'll try to stick with a certain POV through each scene.

The narrator is useful, just be careful where he shows. The only thing I can offer on POV is make it known sooner who's POV we are in. Several places I was not sure of until well in.

Maria. I suppose I was thinking too narrowly about her when creating her character...she's presented as a very strong woman, but only when Philippe is there. I was trying to make it appear that she really isn't that strong at all, not by herself, that Philippe is sort of her crutch. When he's gone, she's going to have to find personal strength from a different source.

Hmmm, I see Maria as dependent on Philippe, without any identity on her own...except, those little dreams she keeps having and does not share with Philippe. I suppose those will all play out very shortly and I the reader was willing to wait it out to see what that was about. Maria showed some spark...speaking out to Autumn, and then Dumath during the court...but even in the court proceeding, I was a little taken back that she was not more forceful about what one of Dumaths knights was trying to do to her. Of course, even today, lots of women do not want to talk about attack, so it could be understood. I would just like to see a little more depth and individualism in Maria. Yes, she and Philippe are a team, but I feel Maria is more of the main character at this point than anyone else. Therefore, I want to know more about her...Yes...yes...more...lol.

Pacing of the story. I know that a whole lot of people don't like it when writers take a long time to set up and introduce things. I'm still sticking to my rationale of character being paramount, more important than plot...characters are not plot devices, rather plots are character devices. The story itself is about the characters living through extraordinary circumstances...therefore I believe I must present the characters in a solidly normal light before throwing them into the unusual. Camera focus is centered on the characters while the plot and background pass by behind them, not the other way around. As long as the plot is interesting enough to make readers want to read more at all, I think I've done my job. And trust me, things will move MUCH more quickly in the remaining parts, almost too quickly for some people.

I totally undestand and agree that characters have to be developed, and that characters drive the plot, not the otherway around. The pacing I referred to though is within certain scene's or chapters, the set up. But I also found area's where I thought you rushed things and I wanted more detail. Its a fine line, and many times a matter of readers taste as much as writers taste.

Now that I've gotten so much helpful feedback on part 1, I feel safe that I can implement those suggestions and finally move on to the real bread and butter of the story. Hopefully, once readers get into the fast-paced plot, they'll forget about the slow beginning or at least appreciate the time I took to set things up.

I am very sure that Part 2 will pick up, just don't make it too quick and lose the readers. Keep with the scene and give the readers a full sense of your world and what is happening.

I feel I must apologize for not being very active in reviewing or submitting work this summer. I've been busy with work, and now I'm busy with preparations for going back to school...but hopefully after this month I'll be able to participate more since I'll be all settled in at school and back into a routine.

Don't worry about it...school and work, and family come first. When people start paying us advances to write first then we can reschedule our lives around our writen words. I think writers sacrifice so much as is that we often times have to remember there are other needs, wants and desires other than the writen word. Wow...did I just say that. lol. It has been a pleasure Andy, and I hope that in some small way I have helped. But...don't lose your individual voice over anyones suggestions.

Best of wishes for a great school year ahead and with your world.
Nick.

I think you're right about editing down rather than going back and adding. I keep finding places where I think I should add more and more and sometimes even change the structure of the plot for the short term. But I seriously need to get writing on the 2nd part...after all that is where the really important events happen, the ones that really matter.

I think I will have a great year at school academically (taking Creative Writing, Argumentative Writing, Early British Literature, and a Literary Criticism class) as well as in every other way...I'm super excited to go back. The fast-paced unpredictable lifestyle really helps my creative juices to flow. :D

Andy,

I remember those day and I envy you. You have the spirit and drive. You will do well. Best to you this coming year. And remember...to just take some time for yourself as well.

Nick.