The Wood Beyond The World Forum Realm of Shadow discussion

Leah D	Realm of Shadow discussion 17 Years Ago The place to discuss Michael's Realm of Shadow.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Leah, thanks for posting the thread for my tale Realm of Shadow. Realm of Shadow is what I call my "Baby". It has been in work since 1989-90 or there abouts has undergone many of title changes, character changes, philosophies, story arc alterations and even completed once. Alas I lost both the hard copy (basement flooded in 1994) and soft copy....Well what do you expect I wrote it in Kindwords on an Amiga and only had it on Floppies. Thus I have been re-writing and re-writing. Never again to get near that finish line. :( So it's been nearly a 20 year project for me. But I like the current incarnation of the tale. The characters have been developed nicely, I feel that they have literaly grown with me, and indeed they have. But with this said, please do not feel you need to be kind and easy on it, no on the contary, please pick it apart. I must tell you all now, I passed Creative Writing in College with an A, but it was tough, for in Highschool all those years ago, I could not pass Spelling or Grammer...So be ye now warned. With these I am terrible. Again, enjoy the read and let me know what ya think. Mike R.
Nick Anthony	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Micheal, Welcome to the Wood. Do not feel alone on the length of time you have worked on your baby. My Tales of Netherron have been a project since about the mid 80's as well. Hand writen, then typed. A chapter here, a dozen chapters there, start over another 5 or 6 chapters going into a different direction. Not until after 911 did I decide that if I was every going to take the chance then I had to get serious. I spent two years just putting together the 3 initial tales, about 1.5 million words. Then six months on what I thought was polishing and editing of Book 1. (Its ok to laugh...I too laugh when I think that I thought 6 months was a long time then.) It went out, I even got an agent...but thats another story for another time. Point being, I am still polishing Book 1, reworking book2 and have learned more in the last year than all the pervious years I only pretended to be a writer in. So don't feel bad. Leah and I have been working on each other for about a year now...though I think I have learned more from her than she has gained from me. lol. She is wonderful on all the little nit picky things and of course, grammar. Personally, I love her storys. Me...I am a big POV, Pace and consistency freak...I will let you know where I have a problem, will also not if its a personal preference or taste issue over the true mechanic's of something. Bill is wonderful with words as is Adam. Scribbles will make you think about things that you may not have thought on before...she's pretty detail oriented. The rest I am still learning about, but we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. I welcome another voice of sanity and reason the Wood and hope that we learn as much from you as we also offer. Nick.
Leah D	[no subject] 17 Years Ago I have to respond to Nick, a little. I'm a technician -- I know how language works and why. I'll never tell you to do anything with your language without a darn good reason that comes from the nature of language itself, and relates directly to your intentions for your story. That's my strong point. Everything else about writing stories -- the stuff that shows -- PoV, pacing, and plot especially -- I've learned from Nick and numerous others, including many of the folks here. We all need other eyes and minds to find the flaws in our work and discover the ways we can improve it. I think everyone in this group has something different and worthwhile to offer. I've reviewed first section of Realm of Shadow, by the way, and I'm looking forward to your responses, Mike.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Thank you both for the insight on the members. I hope I can be as helpful to all in the group as I'm sure you'll be for me and already have. This is the kind of interaction I was hoping to find when I joined the Cafe. Leah, I will post my response to your review in the AM as my typing skills are slowly dissipating along with my focus.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Realm of Shadow, Chapter 1.1 Cat I have re-wrote this openning sequence many o' times and to be quite truthful, I am still not happy with it. There are approximately 10 to 11 POV characters through out the book, and to be honest about 7 of these are central. So why did I chose Cat for the begining? I not sure. She is indeed one of my favorites and one of the top 4 central players in the tale. Her actions drive the main character Jayce as emotions flow between these two. Chapter 1 is a long chapter and in truth I am thinking of breaking into 3 chapters, much like the 3 sections posted. Orginally this Dialog was placed before she got her Tea by the "Horny Cabin Boy": Quote: "We have a problem Capt'n," said a voice from behind her. Timothy, her first mate for three years, was a competent man, but at times a bit over concerned about the smallest of incidence, somewhat paranoid to the point of almost becoming an annoyance. "What now?" she asked. "We've got a caravel approaching fast off the port stern," he said anxiously. "It's probably an Islesen patrol," she said calmly. "No, it flies a strange flag." He turned to face the aft of the ship. "Do you feel the air?" She did and thought nothing of it. "It grew colder as soon as the caravel came in sight, and it's gotten colder the closer it gets." But in this version, I moved it down until she left her room and introduced Tim later. Tim however is mentioned by her throughout (defining his loyalty) and plays a small but yet vital role in later chapters. So It is possible here maybe for me to imbellish a little with him here, and at the same time flush out some of Cat's backstory. I recently wrote an interview with Cat...I sitting and asking her a few questions. This I'm also doing with other leads. However this offered some insight to the brave but love struck sailor. If intested I can Email or Post, what's the census on this? I agree fully with the comment on dramatising the revenge scene, I actually like this idea alot, but in a prologue? With so many central characters would it be feasible to give her the spotlight here? Or should I create a action based prologue based on the true "Bad Guy" who in this tale is currently not introduced until Chapter 4? I orginally had an opening sequence (prologue) that was more of a narrative than an action piece, but it never sat well with me. So to make a long story short, Leah I do like and even agree with your suggestions, but now the hard part, acting on them.
Nick Anthony	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Micheal, I have only skimmed lightly over part 1, and plan on doing an indepth review this evening. But from what I have seen, I have to agree with Leah, in that you need more hook than back story. Reading your post my main question on all your characters is this...which one is the main protagonist that you "want" to tell the story of and from. Example... In my Tales of Netherron, I have 64 noted characters just in the first book. OF those, 9 are main or supporting protagonist. There there are almost an equal number of antagonist. But, I tell the tale mainly from the main protagonist, allow the supporting characters their moments during transitions and scene shifts. The antagonist also get their turns so that the readers understand who they are and what drives them. But never in the same chapters, without cause and effect, and transitions. Just from the sound of it in your post, your not sure who you want to tell the story from because you feel you have so many interesting characters. We all do. lol. Welcome to the Woods. lol. But I think in your head, you more than likely know who the main protagonist and antagonist are and thus, you should concentrate on them, allowing the others their brief moments of support and discovery. I will note more once I read up on it tonight. Best of luck, Nick.
Leah D	[no subject] 17 Years Ago I've had similar PoV problems with my first "baby." I started with Wythe and got stuck with her, until the middle, when suddenly her companion Mathis had to carry part of the story. So, upon "completion" I've had to go back and introduce Mathis' PoV much sooner, weave it into the story in other, earlier places, etc. This proved an excellent move for the story in general, as Mathis has a much brisker way of approaching events. He's gotten me through several rather tedious info-heavy meetings, etc. I also had several other significant PoV's become necessary the further I went, so had to write them in earlier too. The latest early addition is Faj -- this is what comes of not really knowing what you're doing when you start. I've avoided such snafus in later work, making PoV decisions before I'm more than a chapter or two into the thing. I still can't outline a whole story and make decisions really ahead of time -- I have to wait for the characters to interact and tell me what to do. Since we don't know the whole of your story it's hard to say whether Cat is the one to begin with. I like her, and would feel drawn into the story if we see her in action more right at the outset. One thing I'd suggest -- make the physical description of Cat more her own assessment of herself -- let her reflect more directly on the effect she has on men, etc. Just a suggestion -- I started the sequel to True Minds with two points of view that aren't the primary protagonists' -- a boy rescued from slavery to corsairs, and the first officer of the sea captain who's the main protagonist. They both give a view of the captain that he wouldn't be able to give of himself. I don't move directly to his point of view till the second chapter. Maybe if you take a look at the first two chapters of Compelling the Demon (available through my home page) it would expand your ideas on what to do with your prologue/first chapter. I cover quite a bit of backstory -- distant and near -- without making it too much of an info-dump, I think. I think you should post all your experiments. We'll recognize them as such, and give honest, but kindly, evaluations.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 17 Years Ago I have plans on attempting to have this to be a 3 novel epic and the 3 main protangists are Jayce, Norrelle (as to be seeing in later chapters way) and Ayrial. But in all, it's Jayce's story, but as of now, I end chapter 1 with his point of view and openning. The Antagonist in this part of the tale is the eccentric wizard that found a way to open a portal and thus control the plane of shadow, however, he is not introduced until CH 4. I do however bring in his lackies, who I feel are in the complete tale for the long haul.
Leah D	[no subject] 17 Years Ago If it's Jayce's story mostly, I think you should get to the first mention of him a bit sooner. He doesn't need to make an appearance in the first few paragraphs, but he should be a presence, even if it's just by way of an offhanded reference.

Nick Anthony	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Micheal, Just finished reviewing 1.1. Don't take anything said personally...lol. Right now the biggest issues I have with 1.1. You do not introduce Cat soon enough, almost the entire section is Passive storytelling in that your presenting us the readers with a list of actions and backstory before we get to know the character. I really think you have the makings of a good story here, and your style is smooth and flowing. But I personally would love to see it told in Active voice storytelling, using a narrator or observer only where needed, when needed. I think if you could solve the POV issue with Cat sooner than later, weed out what Backstory you do not need at this time, then your going to fall into more Active voice than Passive voice...if that makes sense. If you have any questions, please feel free to message me. NIck.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Wow, I don't know where to begin. Like I said previously, this is exactly what I was looking for, this kind of analysis of the writing. Currently I'm excited and depressed. Excited because I'm actually looking forward to the re-writes and alterations. All the critiques have been fabulous and actaully educating. I do not wanna make myself sound like I'm an idiot, but I was always unsure of the Passive/Active voice. I must have slept that day in english/writing class. After reading your comments, both of ye thus far, I have done research on line between the two. Now I feel utterly armed and dangerous. Now onto Cat. The following is an interview that I held with her between Chapters 10 and 12. Let me know what ya think. See if this helps. It did me, and some of the answers actually took me by surprise. Quote: Interview with Catherine Foster. June 2nd, 258 HR on board the Mystic. Q. What do you prefer to be called, Catherine or Cat? A. Well, I hate Kate, Catherine makes me sound stuffy, so Cat I guess. I�ve been called Cat most of my life. In the service, I become use to Foster, but that don�t mean I like it. Q: When where you born? A: October 5th, 224 HR Q: Where? A: Port Alexi Q: Who were your parents? A: Robert and Carol Foster Q: Are they still alive? A: No, my mother passed away when I was only fifteen giving birth and my father was killed when I was only 19. Q: So you have siblings then? A: Just one, Trae, he�s 18 now. Q: You practically raised your brother then, isn�t that so? A: Yes I did. Our first years were tough. When my father died, we lost our home which went to another man of rank. We hid out in our favorite place back then, it was an old inn that the city had long since forgotten about and no one could afford to purchase. But after I got the position as First Mate, then we were given a modest home. Now of course I have a manor much like the one my father had that I share with Trae. Q: Yes you do. Acquiring this position was no easy task. You killed a man for it right? A: Among other things, yes. My father was killed by his First Mate, Christopher Wrellin. My Father was a good man, a good captain, but he had a sense of good in him I guess. He was always second guessing the code and honor of the Alexians. But then, it was highly acceptable, even encouraged to plunder, capture, or sink other countries vessels. My father was not that kind of man, thus hurting the pockets his crew. So Lt. Wrellin took matters into his own hands. I knelt by my father�s body for hours; he was killed in our home, in the foyer, in front of Trae. I was out, now I wish I was not. I never cried so much as I did that night. When I gathered my courage, I knew where Chris and the crew would be. I marched over to the tavern, boldly walking straight in. I was told a hush came over the crowd, but I was not aware of it. Chris said some kind of foolish tough guy remark, and then I gutted him like the pig he was. I set a benchmark that night. I joined the crew and used my body and my sword to rise to rank. I�m not proud of what I have done. At times I�m disgusted by the length in which I used my body. But hey if ya got it, use it. I looked at it as a weapon, no different than my sword. Q: Are you happy now, doing what you do now? Was it worth it? A: Well (she laughed here), that�s a trick question. I love the sea, it�s in my blood and if I could I�d live and eventually die on the sea, but that cannot happen. Do I care that I�m a Captain? Sure, who in my position wouldn�t, look at the benefits that accompany that rank and above. Again, do I love my home? Alexi? Yes in a manner of speaking. It�s old, it�s got history, it�s secure, but again, there�s a flip side to every silver coin. Now ask me if I like who I work for? There you�ll get a big fat NO. I hate the Pirate Organization, and that name doesn�t even suit them anymore. It�s a damn dictatorship, run by the military. Currently Admiral Payaven sits in his plush office living off of the blood and sweat of his damn citizens. I�m ashamed to be associated or even a part of that, but to raise my brother decently, I had too. Q: What are your fears, or what scares the legendary Cat Foster? A: Loneliness. Being alone I would guess. Q: How has your life changed in the last few weeks? A: Wow, what a question, where do I begin? Wow, now let me see, this all started off with the orders to sell East to Islesen to capture and bring back a traitorous back-stabbing rogue. A rogue that I knew even then I loved, but thought that I did not need the head ache or the commitment that a relationship meant. Especially one several miles apart. I wasn�t really sure how to feel about the future. I mean, I thought that I�d never really escape Alexi and the �Admiral�, and as a woman, I could only climb so high up the proverbial ladder. So I kinda resigned myself to staying at sea. Now don�t get me wrong I like the sea, I find it peaceful, calm, reassuring, and much safer than the land, but I couldn�t really picture myself doing this for the rest of my life. Now, yes, I wanna settle down, buy a merchant vessel maybe, or hell I�ve got enough now to buy a merchant company, or start one. That is if Alexi has completely fallen and we win. Then, my life would damn near be perfect. Sail when I wanted, stay home when needed, and find a man. Now, there�s the catch ain�t it, finding the man. Q: Is Jayce the right man? A: St, straight for the heart, you�re good. Well if you asked me if I love him, I would say yes, with everything that I have, my heart, my soul, and my life. But, is he the �right� man? There�s a lot more to Jason than meets the eye, and he would have to give up quite a bit to be the right man for me. And I�m not sure if he would. I guess it depends on how much he truly loves me, if he does at all. Q: Would you give it all to be the �Right� Woman for him? A: Wow, you are good. I don�t know, I �(she paused here for a few minutes. Poured some tea, stared out the portal I saw the tear before she cleverly wiped her check. She sat, sipped her tea.) If he asked. Yes. I think I would. Q: So you are ready to settle down then? A: Hell, Mike, I�m not getting any younger. I�m 33 years old, no children, and a home I rarely see, a brother I miss terribly. A ships captain I may be, a tough b*h sure, a battle harden swordswoman yes, but let us not forget, besides all that, I am still just a woman. A woman who does yearn for that which I see when I�m in ports, a family, love, something to share and a legacy to leave behind. Maybe this war will just work my life out for me huh. That would be a side effect that I would not walk away from.
Leah D	[no subject] 17 Years Ago MIke: That is enlightening. I talk to my characters too, though I've never done an actual interview. Mostly I listen to them talk to each other. Is there a way you can work Cat's vengeance into this book? I really want to see the full dramatic treatment. On the subject of a prologue -- maybe a scene from when Cat and Jayce got together before this book. Something really dramatic, that you could pick up from in the beginning of the actual first chapter -- go to Cat's briefer reflections and projections for the future, as you have it currently. (Condensed a bit, though.)
Nick Anthony	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Reading the responses,...If Jayce is the main story...then the prologue might cause confusion if more about Cat than Jayce. What I mean is that if the first two opening chapters deal more with Cat, then the readers are going to connect sooner with Cat and may even resent Jayce for interfereing...if that makes sense. I like Cat's character already, but only because I do not know Jayce yet. Of course, many stories do not start out with the main protagonist, so it is possible to introduce the main character later and still hook the readers. It all depends on what your going for here... Nick.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 17 Years Ago Now that you mention it and make me sit and go hmmm, I believe I may actually wish the readers not to like him. Have a preconcieved notion of him even if you will. Jayce likes to give off the illusion that he's not a nice guy. Life was cruel to the man, thus he reflects that, however it's truly not his nature. I think I want the readers to see him first through her, then watch him grow and surprise you as the tale unfolds. You'll find Jayce in 1.3. Note: I've already re-numbered my chapters saved on my drive. Also, I'm thinking of a action based 3 part prologue. 1. Cat and her action that caused her rise to fame. Years later. . . 2. Jayce and Cat meet Years later 3. the Unknown wizard watching a blood-bath take place 8 years after the knighthood disbanded. (The very battle Norrelle is investigating in her openning scene.) Comments? On Chapter 1.2 I agree again. I must alter to be more active voice here. I wish to slowly unfold Norrelle, her persona is very important to the entire storyline. She shines in Part III of this novel. She literaly watched this city grow, which she relfects on in the 3rd part. How is somewhat told in chapter 5 or 6 now. You two have kept me very busy this weekend. I thank you and will indeed return the favor, I hope.
Nick Anthony	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Micheal, Just finished the review of the Prologue and the biggest thing I can say is that it feels very rushed and incomplete as is. Its like your trying to be mysterious and quick and to the point to draw the readers in. But the quickness leaves the prologue with a feeling of lacking. Lacking detail, depth, context. Not to say you do not have something here, but I would expand it a bit, introduce the reader to Clinox sooner than later and let him really tell the story, and why he is seeking this wagon train out and who it is he wants to punish. Its ok for the readers to know certain things that the main protagonist can not know, so long as it comes from a reliable source. Clinox would be giving your readers the advantage of shouting at your main protagonist and saying...don't open the door. Hope my review helped. If you have any questions, message me. Nick.
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 16 Years Ago I have posted to the Wood an updated version of the Prologue for Realm of Shadow. I have taken heed of some of your comments and added this, hopefully causing a little hook for the readers with out telling too much. Let me know what you think. Also, thank you all for your comments and Leah for your concern. I hope to catch up on forums and reading. Just read both of Nicks Prologues, but my PC / Internet is acting up so don't know how much I can post. Massive storm moving in, maybe that's got something to do with it I don't know. Please let me know what you all think...Cover it in red, please. ::biggrin::
Michael Raymond Robinso..	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Well that is utterly unacceptable....Word crashed, lost my online connection and did not save my chapter 1 rework. What it did save was a bunch of jibberish that I have no idea what is says, the only thing readable is what I added before the last save. It's just a bunch of Y's like symbols. Any ideas? I was using an online storage called Xdrive, now the file does not even exist there......HELP ::cry::
Zuri Amma	[no subject] 16 Years Ago I'm really sorry to hear that happened. Unfortunately I haven't any advice to offer, but I hope you are able to re-write just as well if not better than what you lost. Scribble
Leah D	[no subject] 16 Years Ago Okay, now I'm tackling your revised prologue. I liked the content very much, and where I liked it best was where it felt most like Clinox's own thoughts. (I hope he does change his name -- it reminds me of doing the laundry.) When you throw in little asides like "in actuality" that puts a narratorly distance on the PoV, and you begin to lose me. I'd like to see exactly the same prologue, in it's expository elements, right from inside Clinox's fleshless skull, entirely in his own sinister voice. You could make a bit more of how he sees without eyes, how he sighs without lungs. No elaborate explanations, just a little description. Okay, come back with questions, explanations, whatever. (Now I've reviewed you twice -- I want a review from you too! ::smile:: )