The Wood Beyond The World Forum Dramatic Irony vs. sheer surpr..

Okay so I want to talk about a couple of writing strategies and which one you all think is better, or rather, which you would prefer to use.

Dramatic irony is when the author reveals something about the story that is important to the characters, but the characters don't know about yet. This can be good because it keeps readers on the edge of their seat, wondering what will happen when the characters find out about whatever it is, and how they will react. Honestly, I barely ever see this sort of writing in modern writing, especially fantasy. Maybe it's harder to achieve or something.

Now sheer surprise is when the author withholds crucial plot information from both the readers and the characters, often revealing the information to the readers and the characters at the same time. This has good shock value, and if this is done well it'll make the readers want even more to read on, and it's fun for readers to predict what will happen before it has happened.

Now both of these techniques have their advantages, but like I said I hardly ever see dramatic irony anymore, and I kind of miss it. I wonder if certain story situations would be better to use one technique or the other, or whether the desired effect could be achieved through the use of either. Thoughts?

I think irony is always worth it. I'm using both what you call surprise and irony in TM, actually. The readers know more about the villains' emotional states and assumptions than the other characters do. Both characters and readers have to wait for clues to a mystery. Some characters know more than others, and readers should realize that. Readers will have to stay on their toes if they want to guess ahead, for some things, anyway. I really think I keep most of my plot twists unexpected, but still entirely plausible.

I think both approaches work, but I've had so much fun with the psychology of my villains, that I wouldn't want to ignore that -- the fact that exploring that adds irony is just a bonus.

My other books are more complex -- villains are almost non-existent -- everyone has questionable motives, and the conflict is painfully complex -- no good can come of it, in a way. I can't wait till I get these revisions done with, the "book between" finished, and get on with #4.

I've gotten a little practice with irony in writing a prequel for TM -- the protagonists are obviously flawed, so though the TM villains are about the same, there are a lot more things to think about, for me and for readers (I hope.) The very first and last chapters of Of Two MInds are also available on my homepage, by the way.

With Irony...its like going to the movies and your shouting at the screen...don't open the door. The charactes do not know whats behind the door, but you the view/read do and thus...you're involved.

Shock too gets us on the edge of our seat. How many times have your read something late at night and then turned on a few more lights, or felt like something was crawling on you because of what you read. Shock is whatever the reader did not see coming and therefore...is surprised...or in the case of Agatha Christie...let down. lol.

Me...I use a little of both. My first 1/3 of the book is about the main protagonist and the conflicts he faces, getting into his character, building the storyline. The second 1/3, the readers learn alot more about the antagonist, their thoughts, their backstory and things the main character could not know. This of course all leads to the final 1/3 when we go back and forth and it all leads to the final conflict. The readers knows something the protagonist does not know...but I still invoke surprise or shock at the end...I hope.

I got Leah pretty ticked off when a beloved character did not make it...lol.

Nick.

I feel you have to be extremely cautious with both, especially sheer surprise. That is why foreshadowing is crucial to me. I've read many stories that started off well but became a wet fart with chunks because they pull a surprise to get them out of a badly plot situation. Suddenly the hero pulls out a magical blade out of nowhere or he knows a spell that saves the day but there was no previous hint about these things. Or in science fiction, the particle of the week syndrome.

I agree, irony is a tough thing to pull off whilst surprise is much easier. Yet in the end, I try to stay away from both, preferring an "aha!" moment. There is a build up and when something happens, people go "aha" not "whoa, what the f**k!". I think that is more satisfying for the reader. But that is just my opinion.

I think part of this discussion is the question of plausibility.

There should be reasons for everything that happens in a story -- they needn't all be explicit -- but they have to be there. Mostly I think they should have their origins in the characters and their behavior -- how they react to events, to each other, and to their own interior processes. That stuff has to be real.

The distinction Andy's going after, I think, is more one of how we convey the reality. I found out that my own work is more interesting, to myself and others, if I let readers know things that some characters don't -- not by whispering it in their ears as an omniscient narrator, but by presenting it through other characters or just as something observed. Ideally the reader knows more than any given character, while not knowing everything, and has the fun of putting it all together, so that crucial events in the plot become necessary, without being foregone conclusions.

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I agree one hundred and ten percent. That is part of what I mean by foreshadowing. Details are given to the reader so when there is a twist, the reader doesn't go "huh?" but "oh, yeah!".

But it doesn't always have to be from other characters. It can be a comment which then comes true. Like a character saying "I've heard that this mole I have on my left shoulder means I am special" and when it is revealed they are, the seed has already been planted.

The hard task is to find that balance. You don't want to give too much away and not give too little. I've had that with Harry Potter. When a twist comes, there is the surprise but when I stopped to think about it, all the pieces were there. I just didn't see them, completely

I am finding more and more I am like a farmer with my stories. I am sowing seeds here and there, some obvious and some not so obvious so when something happens, the reader can either get it or if they go back, see I've hinted about this the whole time. So whether it is irony of surprise, the reader doesn't feel I've cheated to get out of a tough situation.

Bingo!

My foreshadowing is very subtle and indirect, but once something happens I hope critical readers can go back (even to the first chapter) and realize "oh, so that's what that was all about." I personally love that feeling when I'm reading something. I'm just trying to recreate that for other people.

I'm going to echo Leah here: bingo!