The Wood Beyond The World Forum Recommended Research Books

With the stimulating discussions we are having, and the diverse group we have, I thought it would be interesting to hear from all of you about interesting research books you recommend on different topics, excluding writing. I'll throw a few into the ring.

Art of War by Sun Tzu
For me an invaluable resource about organizations in conflict. If you are planning battles, skirimishes, using spies, this is the book to read to add some amazing depth to your story.

The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers by Paul Kennedy
This is an older book that deals with economic change and military conflict from 1500 to 2000. Kennedy focuses on European empires that rose & fell and has intriguing suggestions on how the economy of the empire directly affects the strength and weakness of it. I have tons on notes about empires collapsing because of this book.

The Christian Tradition (Volumes 1 to 5) by Jaroslav Pelikan
If you are looking at creating a salvation style religion like Christianity, a must read. It is dry and scholarly but shows how the Christian church evolved from 100 AD to now. Pelikan focuses on the development of doctrine, not dogma. It gives insight on how Christian teachings evolved. Absolutely a fascinating historical overview, well for me that is.

Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality by John Boswell
For those of you looking at having gay characters and deal with homophobia, I feel this is a must read. It is also a major eye-opener to the misconception that the Christian Church formed or lead the attitudes toward homosexuality in the early West.

So those are my initial suggestions. I love to hear your suggestions.

Sounds interesting. I have to admit I have only actually read (or heard of) one of those.

A good practice is to save from the newspaper whatever articles you discover that might be useful in your writing.

For instance, if I am interested in homosexuality and Christianity, I might collect articles such as those regarding the schism among Episcopalians over their allowing a gay bishop.

I have files containing two decades of great articles on sociology, psychology, warfare, diplomacy, history, earth sciences, space sciences, evolution, genetics, Chinese policitics, etc.

I have found these articles useful in writings of all sorts. I prefer to explore the present and future of humanity and I enjoy ammunition by which to make fun of us; also I find newspapers often contain cutting edge science, tech, thought regarding warfare and the like. And articles can provide plenty of ideas for a book off which you can play without reading vast amounts of other peoples' material.

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Great point, but within a context. For my sci-fi stuff, I do the same thing, but when it comes to my fantasy writing, current material doesn't cut it. The various schisms in the different Christian sects works in a contemporary setting, but not in an early setting because of the evolution of the dogma and doctrine. The rise of intolerance against homosexuality within the Christian doctrine didn't really start until around the 11th and 12th centuries.

Yet at the same time, old texts still can add vibrancy to sci-fi. Art of War is a good example. I cannot recommend it highly enough because it works in the corporate world, not just the military world. Look at how the Japanese used it to build their corporate empires after they were destroyed because of WW II.

Another case in point, if the people in charge of the current conflict in Iraq would use just 1/4 of the pearls of wisdom in that book, things might be different. But that is just my humble opinion.

Pelikan is a great resource -- he has other books too of course.

For details of culture I'm a fan of the DK Eyewitness books for kids. There's really a lot of information in them -- ancient cultures, historical phenomena, etc -- just for quick fill-ins that lend verisimilitude.

I've been collecting "bargain books" on history and cultural stuff. Not so much for deep understanding, but for bringing in detail. Analyses of great Medieval battles, translatations of manuals of Japanese swordsmanship, etc. I've got a fair amount of deep background on philosophy, religion, history, etc. from years of formal education, and surveys and contemporary texts are enough to bring things alive for me.

Boorstein's books on cultural history are good. Jacques Barzan's From Dawn to Decadence is deeper -- I haven't read the whole thing. Guns, Germs, and Steel is a contemporary analysis of cultural development that I found interesting. Stuff like that is important to the kind of stories I'm working on, but might not be very significant to everyone.

I think anyone whose setting is pretty much medieval should try to understand the way people lived before the industrial revolution. The differences in everyday life might not be immediately apparent to someone born since the 1950s or so. There was a lot more self-sufficiency throughout most of human history, and the way that mixes with trade and the growth of a global economy, the rise of cities and industrialization, is fascinating in and of itself, I think.

Any good Western Civ course probably covers most of it.

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This is a cool topic i'd like to reexamine. Remember when we discussed the triangular power balance between author, text and audience? i pointed out History as a possible authority over all of them. Marlowe's Edward II is a play rife with political power-plays and social climbing. to the modern reader the relationship between edward and gaviston is a homosexual issue and is the cause of the internal corruption of a king and his. Derek Garman exploited this chronocentric tendency in his Film adaptation of Edward II. My personal research into Elizabethan Homoseuality and Edward the second revealed that Homosexuality wasn't even a concept at that time. homosexual acts existed (obviously) but there was name for it, and there was no stigma attached. BUT there was soemthing much worse and more all-encompassing. The Sodomite. Any one who was a Sodomite (term is less broad today) is someone who is guilty of religious decrepitude. were not just talking anal or oral sex deeds, we're talking complete impiety, impurity, defamatory social regard.

But people couldn't just go around accusing people they didn't like of being a sodomite. the act of accusation drew attention to the accuser. People ask "what's he got to hide?"
also in elizabethan era, political figures and religious leaders and, well basically everyone, had a male companion (like a caddy in golf), and at te end of the long day they settled into a single bed (because heating systems were a few hundred years away). Once people get into bed there is no guarantee that they will sleep right away. People had lied awake talking about business and their daily doings, and political men shared their thoughts with their male companions -- it was natural, it was necessary. And believe me, people had sex with each other but no one wanted to be a sodomite (not publicly).

I recommend Marlowe's Edward II, Derek Garman's film and articles written by Alan Bray regarding Male friendship and Elizabethan Homosexuality. Historical consciousness is rather amazing. Through comparative study and historical research about behavior and language we can uncover amazing things about the human social animal.

Aside, i recommend readings by Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, James HIllman. but that's another topic.



Homosexuality wasn't even a concept in the 11th 12th centuries.

Sorry just have to bring up something. Why is it that so many discussions seem to forget that there is history outside of europe? Homosexuality may not have been a concept in europe but during that frame was well known and practiced in other parts of the world.

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Quite true. Yet most of my books are Euro-centric because most of my writing is based on aspects of early & medieval Europe. Art of War and Three Pillars of Zen are, currently the only Asia books I have and all of my Native American Indian books focus on their tales, not details of their cultures.

I also think what is at issue here is what we are exposed to. That is why I introduced this thread, one to get some general discussion but also specific recommendations which we might not know of. And my next set of recommendations will be more North American-centric.

If you would like to use a particular setting for some or all of your story, and you haven't the money to go there and experience it for yourself, you can buy a good guide book written for travelers to the area. The best will give you insight into peoples' customs, architecture, socio-economic stucture, and all sorts of cultural issues, not to mention the climate and other lay-of-the-land issues.

In this same vein, you can find out much about an area's history by consulting an encyclopedia (my, how quaint this sounds in the days of Google).

And for straight geography, I would recommend a topflight Atlas such as those published by National Geographic.

I have a question: why does it seem to me that nearly everyone claiming to write fantasy believes they must reintroduce swords for fighting and horses for transportation? Not like the use of modern transportation would require author to call it science fiction, eh?

Seems to me a fantasy writer would not have to try reconstructing Dark Ages Christianity, or avoid allusions to our modern dilemmas, if s/he worked more in a present day setting. I find little of interest in such antiquated settings, unless the story is intentionally a historical (such as James Clavell's works). While anything can work if the author is talented enough, such settings often seem to me creations of those who would romanticize the past (implying escape from the disgusting present) and likely in so doing fail to speak to the issues of present-day readers.

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I didn't forget.

my point wasn't that being gay just came out of nowhere, it wasn't that same-sex sexual acts had never occurred before.

When you and I, uniquely historically placed in this Now, hear or say "homosexual" we have a structure of knowledge that supports what this word means.

Gay rights. have they ever needed to exist before? Same sex marriage, has that ever needed to be a political right?

I argue, that despite if the culture exists outside europe, what ever same-sex encounters that have historically happened did not happen under the word or concept of homosexuality where there is an implied political right or freedom to practice same-sex encounters or relationships. I argue that encounters of that nature happen all over the world, all through time, and in any culture that did not persecute it also didn't feel the need to label something as natural as "sexuality" regardless of who stuck what where.

These days, we have gay, queer, f*g, homo as words to identify people. The gay comunity uses these words as loosely as african americans (or certain sub cultures like hiphop and rap where race is mixed) might call each other "n***a." But this is a historical issue. When we gave into the past and we see behavior in ancient greece that resembles modern homosexuality, we call it homosexuality but inso doing we ascribe ancient greece the same social consequences and under-the-breath back-stabbing comments modern homosexuality is often accosted with. And that! is why using words like homosexuality when gazing into a culture and time that didn't have the concept is no-no. historical consciousness must prevail. like ethnocentrism, don't let your historical placement affect the way you judge the past.

This is definitely for another thread, maybe we can cut and paste this over to the sex thread?

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Good question. Alan Garner's books -- in print in the US again, as far as I know -- use contemporary settings, with Celtic mythology leaking in to challenge the protagonists. Of course the Lovecraftian stuff has other beings from other worlds messing about in our world -- but is that more sci-fi than fantasy? Does there need to be a strict line drawn? I've had people identify my work as sci-fi because of the telepathy thing, and lack of magical beings (I suppose.) (Though there are supernatural beings coming up, actually.)

I've crafted a Renaissance setting because I'm interested in cultural development, in terms of both technology and ideas. I've got a divergence in the two from the way things worked out on our world, due to the mind-powers of the inhabitants of my sub-creation. I can imagine folks in my world developing speedier modes of travel than horses and sailing ships, eventually -- but they'll never need telegraph or telephone, or mechanical means of mass communication. The point I'm catching them at right now is technologically Renaissance, but intellectually post-Enlightenment/Victorian. If I write into their future, there'll be different intellectual movements.

Part of the horses and swords and sail thing is definitely romanticism. At the same time I hope to be realistic about it -- it can't last -- industrialization is rearing it's head, hard on the heals of a globalized economy and a banking system. Folks who believe in "magic" are in for a rough time.

I'm reading David B. Coe's first books right now. His world has a non-tech, magical culture being encroached on by a resource-depleted, technologically advanced, non-magical culture. It stretches credulity a little, for me anyway, but there are some interesting ideas there.

But Bill, you're right about the convention for things medieval. It's partly a nostalgia for a simpler era, partly the sense that magical thinking isn't possible in a scientific age -- but that supposed conflict itself is a rich field for fantasy.

Maybe we need to ask: What do we mean by fantasy anyway?

There several books that are high on my list of must have books, but some of you might find them silly or not very useful.

1...The Whole Earth Catalog.
I am not even sure its in print anymore, but they had the coolest things to have, that you could actually order. Like a Geodome home, solar powered radios, and such. Writing a fantasy survival book, having a list of things from this catalogue could help. Hey Bill, maybe Gust could find a copy.

2...How Things Work,
I think that is the tittle, or close to it. A friend of mine has a copy and it gives quick little explanations with diagrams and detail sof everything from a stone age wheel to the space shuttle. I think the author updates it everynow and then as new advances come along.

3...The Farmers Almanac.
I know this sounds silly too, but for alot of my non-fantasy work, knowing climate at a time of year in a location I have not visited, during a particular time of year, helps.

4...Old Geography Books,
Why? Because the world was not always as it is today.

5...Jane's Guides to weapons.
Of course "Janes guides," are the number one source for information on weapons of all sorts, modern to sling shots. I especially like their guide to sailing vessels and seige engines.

6...Survivalist Books.
Ok, I am not one of these doom days sayers, but alot of these books that talk about how to survive in the wilds are very good, first aid to building shelters, trapping and skinning animals, cooking with natural herbs found in the wild and how to identify them.

In reality...I read anything and everything I can get my hands on. Loekie's book on the Art of Warfare I have heard good things about, but have never picked a copy up.

Just some thoughts.
Nick.

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Leah, great response. Especially the idea that our adults might be losing their ability to think magically. Thank goodness, children every moment come into the world to renew that sense. I'm not sure whether we could entirely educate and structure it out of them, but on the day we succeed in that our species will fail, for surely we will not be the top species anymore. Now there might be an idea for a story!

Nick, you're showing your age when you bring up the Whole Earth Catalogue!

I, personally, feel the dividing line between sci-fi and fantasy is the technology. Because we don't have magic, we invent things to do things, like cars, planes, etc.

In my world, magic is used for many different things. Many people use magic to mass produce pottery or linens. Those that have access to powerful magic can teleport or use items to teleport.

Some stories can merge current technology with magic but it is tricky. Also, as Leah points out, the times we draw on believed in magic. Nowadays we don't. Peoples of an earlier time, a simpler life had magic in their lives. Thus horses, swords, etc. And their thinking was not complex, thus the weapons would be things like crossbows, trebuchets, etc.

And as point out, it depends on the time set we are drawing on. I am using Native American and Celtic mythology and folklore in my stories. They didn't have cars, guns and planes. If I wanted technology in my stories, look to my sci-fi.

I have taken Adam's most excellent advice:

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and done so. So Adam, and others who are interested, I've responded to Adam's points and we can continue the discussion there and leave this thread on books. I hope! ::biggrin::

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Here is a small quote from Wikipedia.

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I enjoyed finding this definition (a few years ago), as it seemed one that described exactly what I have long been doing:

My Titans are from another realm situated within sight of Haven (heaven without baggage), the latter from which my Bodhisattvas have come. Both can enter human wombs, control dreams, and have uses for various kinds of "nectar" which, as my first book mentioned, is born from "tears of sorrow and joy." Both realms' inhabitants are intimately related to humanity, and all have a stake in the disposition of humanity.

From a Buddhist perspective, "reality" as defined by science is all a reflection of Mind Itself (God, which is not different than the mind of nirvana), and so in an absolute sense the world is as each of us imagines it (each of us has a different mental image and a different experience of "reality"). Practically speaking, until we invented the microscope, we imagined reality very differently than we have since that "insight." All imagined worlds have (to quote scripture) "the reality of a hare's horns, or a barren woman's child."

In short, I seek to convey in my writing that REALITY IS MAGICAL EVERYWHERE WE LOOK, everywhere we see it to be magical and also in those places where we have yet to discover it is so (as when using a microscope). The scriptural corollary is that "no atom exists wherein the Tathagata cannot be found." Tathagata, Suchness, Universal Truth, all Buddhist names for God.

Usually the urban fantasy stuff is vampires, werewolves, sometimes fairies, messing about in our world. Usually it's more or less pornographic.

Your stuff, Bill, is inherently more spiritual, it seems to me. As well as intellectually serious.

Therefore I welcome it enthusiastically.

I'd like to do more psychological kind of stuff -- Kafka, Borges, Poe. That doesn't seem to be working for me right now -- I have these characters and their saga who keep on bothering me with their lives.

I think there's magic in our time, in our world. It's easier for me to point to it by positing a world very very much like ours, and exploring that. At the moment. We each do it our own way, but I think that's what we're all driving at -- our minds and the world around us are not strictly rational, nor should they be. Reason may separate us from the animals, but it's something else that makes us truly human.

(It's late, and I'm probably talking out of my head, but so be it.)

Late or not, you are still making sense.

Our minds and the world are certainly not "strictly rational."

Dreams are not rational; nor are emotions. Intellect is just one element of being. Meditation shows there is life after intellect, that when the thought stream is set aside, consciousness is if anything even more vibrant than usual. Overthinking the world and ourselves leads to false speculations that may do more harm than good.

Intuit the world, and without anger or other "nonvirtuous emotions" take joy in what is, and see it deeply and without preconceptions. Then you have magic, for the thoughts that arise out of a persistently positive mind lead to conditions far different than those of a cynic.

There is magic in the human heart, and the characters bugging you appear to me very human. I look forward to giving them a long steady look.

Leah,

Regarding your ID of "urban fantasy" and vampires, here is a further quote from Wikipedia, and the second line is one of my favorites defining the genre:

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Therefore vampires would come under Horror, not Contemporary fantasy.

Hmmm -- often the vampires and so on are the heroes -- in the romance/fantasies, anyway.

I haven't seen very many fantasies with contemporary settings that don't have associations with what we might call "horror." It's played up for sexual content nowadays though.

The wizard and witch things are possible exceptions -- though they tend to be pretty dark too. Grimness trumps wonder in most cases.