The Wood Beyond The World Forum Swords, sorcery, and science

I was sitting here this evening and writing the re-re-revised version of chapter 1, and I was going over the ship that Cat is now sailing. It is a warship, new to her city-state, and unlike any seen before. My issue is that I keep wanting to add Cannons to her decks and then alter other scenes to include naval cannons on ships. However, I don't want to introduce firearms to my society or world yet for that matter. Also, I do not want the fact that the navy has advanced, yet magic is still abundant through out the world.

And if I had Cannons to large vessels, then should I add to the castles, keeps, defensive walls...Now the nightmare begins.

I don't want to ruin the 'believability factor', but I'm a Pirate fanatic and love the old classic broadside battles.

Researching our history, cannons were added to vessels in the 14th century, and were used in Europe in the 13th century. Basicaly they were in existance during the 100 years war, but recordly in Spain with the Moors. So it does make one can cleverly mix the two.

Just want to start this to get your views, not only on Cannons, Gunpowder, both other scientific advancments as well.

Personaly I prefer to stay away from using firearms etc. If you need weapons launched from ships there are several that were used including trebuchet(sp), ballista, catapults etc as well as such things as 'greek fire', 'mines' (tyicaly with a fuse and partially filled with a combustable liquid as opposed to exploding on contact), canisters of pitch (which you'd then set on fire after they burst upon the deck) and other such things were available and at times common in pre firearm societies.

Yeah, guns are usually taboo in fantasy. I'm beginning to think there's no real reason for that though -- gunnery isn't inherently incompatible with magic. If you like 'em, and can use them effectively, I'm tempted to say, Why not?

I chose against it for my stuff -- partly because my sub-creation has been actively pursuing peace for at least a couple of hundred years -- technology for warfare has been at a standstill, though it's progressed in other areas, such as indoor plumbing, clockwork, etc. If armed conflict becomes the norm again, guns may come into it.

Naval warfare existed before cannons, though, as you know, and can be plenty exciting in that form too.

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I agree. But it is difficult because, there are times, you are into something but the internal logic of your subcreation may be violated.

But from what I remember, I could be wrong, but the Chinese used gunpowder centuries before the Europeans did. I know they had land based cannons.

It comes down to this is your world. If it is consistent in your world to use things like guns or cannons, go for it. The important thing for me, as a reader, is that is seems to make sense. I know when I enter someone else's world, it will not be a mirror of 10th century European or Japan. Even Tolkien used a form of gunpowder with the attack on Helm's Deep.

I know for Tangled Threads I am working to have the difference sciences mesh with the use of magic. My choice of not using firearms, etc. is a personal one. I prefer my battles to be more one on one, not from a distance, thus swords, daggers, etc.. Siege weapons are large and clunky. They take time to reload. Cities are designed for this style of warfare. It is not because of a canon or law in fantasy writing. It is a personal preference.

I agree with the general consensus. If it works for your story, don't restrict yourself.

I have also steered away from using guns etc in my current work, because it is not necessary for the time frame in which I feel I am working in. But other projects I have on the back burner are likely to have such weaponry present.

Scribble

I feel that the use of gunpowder in fantasy is a personal thing between the writer and their audience. If the writer is mixing magic and gunpowder in any fashion, then I think they have to weave the world they created in such a way as to have the reader believe it. The single largest question I have about gunpowder of any sort, is how believeable is it with the magic of a writers world. Does the gunpowder weaken the magic, or does the magic overpower even devices in which gunpowder is used.

Like you say Micheal, if on ship, why not on land too, where its even easier to use them. But in bringing in cannon's, now you have to have advanced foundaries, large ones that do more than pig steel. Cannon making was not just done in any blacksmiths stall. And of course, if some one is making cannons, its only logical that pistols and rifles follow, now your opening up a whole new can of worms, even if they are crude ones.

Yes, the Chinese used gun powder several hundred years before the Europeans, but it I remember right, it was mostly for rockets and such. I think it was Marco Polo who brought it back to Europe, along with noodles. Once gunpowder was introduced into Europe, empires rose and fell quicker than ever before. Prolonged seiges were no longer neccessary, and the knights of the realm quickly fell by the wayside as their armour no longer protected them. It was also cheeper to train several hundred peasents in the use of firearms than to pay the upkeep of several dozen knights.

My personal preference is that if your going to write a pirate story where gunpowder is in play, then write that kind of story. If the magic of your world is a main driving factor of the story itself, then your going to have to ask yourself what is the consequences of introducing gunpowder. What will it do to my magic, how could it change a scene, a storyline, etc.

Nick.

I feel that the use of gunpowder in fantasy is a personal thing between the writer and their audience. If the writer is mixing magic and gunpowder in any fashion, then I think they have to weave the world they created in such a way as to have the reader believe it. The single largest question I have about gunpowder of any sort, is how believeable is it with the magic of a writers world. Does the gunpowder weaken the magic, or does the magic overpower even devices in which gunpowder is used.

Like you say Micheal, if on ship, why not on land too, where its even easier to use them. But in bringing in cannon's, now you have to have advanced foundaries, large ones that do more than pig steel. Cannon making was not just done in any blacksmiths stall. And of course, if some one is making cannons, its only logical that pistols and rifles follow, now your opening up a whole new can of worms, even if they are crude ones.

Yes, the Chinese used gun powder several hundred years before the Europeans, but it I remember right, it was mostly for rockets and such. I think it was Marco Polo who brought it back to Europe, along with noodles. Once gunpowder was introduced into Europe, empires rose and fell quicker than ever before. Prolonged seiges were no longer neccessary, and the knights of the realm quickly fell by the wayside as their armour no longer protected them. It was also cheeper to train several hundred peasents in the use of firearms than to pay the upkeep of several dozen knights.

My personal preference is that if your going to write a pirate story where gunpowder is in play, then write that kind of story. If the magic of your world is a main driving factor of the story itself, then your going to have to ask yourself what is the consequences of introducing gunpowder. What will it do to my magic, how could it change a scene, a storyline, etc.

Nick.

I agree with all that is said. Personally, I believe Leah is correct, and I answered my own question when I re-read my posted Chapter 11. I feel that the battle there is exciting, no cannon's used, but bows, crossbows, and swords. Magic was nearly our heroes defeat and also it was thier saviour.

I just wanted to get the feel of mixing it a bit, but you all bring up valid points. Introducing it changes my world drastically, changes that do alter the believablity. And the more I sit and think, and the more I read your input, the more I understand why there is no such "power" in the world of Dargothia. (But that's a secret ::biggrin:: )

There are other sublte advances one can introduce to bring science to the fantasy realm, down to an items as simple as a pocket watch, a Spyglass, or a sextant for example. Other issues are that of Steam and steampower. Steam power and usuage are not in my tale, however hydraulics is.

i'm all in favor for blurring boundaries. that and i also can't help but see magic as a technology as well.

Arthur C Clarke's 2001, though is not about magic, results in a magical doing by the end.

from the beginning it is clear the story is about tools. how we use things that further our evolution into new consiousness.

by the end david bowman destroys missile satellites by willing it.

Adam brings up a good point about the aspect of tools. We are creating our own worlds that requires tools to affect some sort of action. I believe fantasy has gotten into a rut with a mindset that we have to portray some early medieval European style world. People are afraid to break from that mold.

I have just embarked on rereading the Wheel of Time series by Jordan. I had forgotten how cliche ridden the series was set-up. And verbose and bloated. Yet people like him are used as a yard-stick for what one has to write as fantasy.

Much of the fun I am having with my world is breaking away from those bonds, yet staying within them. A good example is the use of magic. Instead of using technology, like Ford did with his assembly line, I use magic for groups to mass produce items like pots, vases, etc. Using magic, they can have the potter's wheel always going at the same speed, create the same pressures around the rising clay, thus producing a production line of mass produced items. So they are using magic as a tool to gain money. Which, of course, pisses off the real artisans in my world.

Science, technology, magic, etc. are not exclusive. The fun is mixing them together in a coherent fashion. Be it magic, swords, cannons, etc., they are just tools in our grasp to move the story forward.