The Wood Beyond The World Forum Deep human struggles/emotions ..

After reading lots of fantasy, older and contemporary, mainstream and obscure, popular and not, I've come to a conclusion. Well, what I already believed has been confirmed, is more like it. For fantasy to really be affecting and memorable, and let's face it, "good", there must be (like any other sort of memorable fiction) some sort of deep theme or motif relating to humanity (or whatever humanoids that we can relate to) and the struggles that encompass all of them. Something that everyone faces at least sometimes, that they can relate to. Sure, battles and fantastic creatures are fun, but without something deeper it's ultimately just a meaningless thrill ride which is easily forgotten after reading it. Not that those are BAD...I myself enjoy a plain old sword-and-sorcery flick now and then.

But anyway. I just thought it would be fun to talk about these ideas in our works, whether they're just a plot device or a driving factor or the whole point of your story. What is in your story that will affect people, that will let them connect with it? What struggle is there, in your heroes as well as your villains, or even the Gods themselves?

For me, a driving factor in most of my work, ("most" not having been posted here yet) is the idea of human brokenness. Let's face it: we're all flawed creatures. We're needy and selfish, full of guilt and pain. But without the guilt and pain, I don't believe it's possible to truly know what it feels like to be whole and joyful. Without one or the other, we'd be unaware and emotionless. A lot of the villains do what they do out of some sort of brokenness, and either their seeking (through incorrect means) of or revenge for their breaking: the pain of rejection, of love unrequited, envy, jealousy, lust, and the guilt and shame that comes with all those things...it's a sad tendency of humans that we so often violate the laws of morality set down for us by ourselves, and then feel guilty about it...even if we never learned that a certain thing is "wrong", we (at least in my case) still have this empty, broken feeling inside us. People either try to cope with the pain or better yet try to prevent the breaking in others or seeking to mend the break through good means ("good" characters all) or lashing out in pain and anger at the world, trying to make the world "understand" their pain, seeking for a mend through "bad" means ("evil" characters)

So, 'brokenness' encompasses emotional brokenness, spiritual brokenness, religious brokenness, sexual brokenness, from twisted/lack of love, rejection, hard-heartedness, jealousy, etc. That's a huge factor in everyone's psyche and motives, and the cool part of that is that no one is completely "good" or "evil".

So what are your driving human factors in your stories?

Just a shallow and hasty reply to an important post.

All my characters have flaws. Sometimes their flaws are also their strengths. For instance, Timu is a little retarded socially and emotionally, and that leads him to a shallow life-style for a time -- but the reason his social/emotional response is a bit warped is largely because he's the very much youngest child in his family, and has an extreme devotion to his sister -- which is a good thing, because it at least gives him the motivation to fight the political bad guys. His ability to form a deep attachment to another person makes it possible for him to be devoted to Wythe, even though they spend 10 years apart (their very deep telepathic connection helps too.) Whether either one of them can deal with life together is another matter.

Timu's sister's idealism and belief in herself are good qualities for a ruler, but they're going to lead her and her country into deep doo-doo a few books on.

And so on.

I defy anyone to find a character of mine who's emphasized at all who doesn't have some kind inherent flaw -- and none of them simple, either.

True, no character, imo, is all good or all bad.

gray characters pitted against one another make for more interesting story telling.


I almost don't know how to approach this thread without discussing major parts of my story. but in general i agree, the poignancy is necessary. A cool story isn't enough to produce that vicarious emotion that keeps us enthralled.

after i'd figured the general outline of the story, i figured in the characters and why they needed to be interested in the story. and it is precisely the deep struggles aspect that gets them.


I think about Shade Calabronn (Cosmos)and Serapio (from Fragment) alot. Shade embraces who he is: a murdering b*****d with a selfish agenda (self-preservation), and Serapio rejects who he was; he regrets his murderous past and will do anything to obliterate it from his mind.

the dynamic between serapio and his son apollo who bares a scar from the wars, serapio, who never sleeps for fear of his ghosts coming to get him -- apollo's mother included -- is not really in the forefront. i'm hoping serapio can be forgiven, and that people will feel for him as they see his Apollo love him regardless. But betweent he two of them, i'm kind of setting them apart the way the story distances them from each other.

Gazmin and felice, if you've read whisper mages you know gazmin eventually loses her and it is that anguish which allows the rune to infiltrate his mind and set his whisper against him. then Urshel is alone in the fold goes back to the "home base" (i'm writing an earlier piece introducing Urshel to the city the whisper mages call home) where he discovers what the shade did (shade calabronn piece)

I think Shade calabronn is my biggest thing going. he's almost the main character and for as much death as he delivers and his entertained responses and nonchalance, cruel nonchalance, his fate is the most ironic, and i don't mean "the bad guy gets what's coming to him" irony. I callthe story Cosmos for a reason

Part of Urshel's adventure (after both whisper mages and shade calabronn -- during Ethereals) he meets a regular dude like you and me, Hector, who's helping his emotionally destitute mother cope with his brother's suicide. He's not having an easy time either. Hector struggles in this segment to kepe the spirit of his brother from being consumed by the rune (because he is always near him) Hector is forced into using to save the ethereals, urshel and his world. ach...too much to talk about.

A lovely topic Andy.

I agree with everyone's points. Positive and negative go hand-in-hand in every single aspect of our lives. Characters MUST have a negative and positive side.

The main factor in my story is looking at facing that side of us that prevents us progressing or developing as people (as a group or as individuals). Denial is a blindness we hinder ourselves with and with it comes defensiveness, 'lack of realisation', aggression, blame, issues in close relationships and so on and so forth. My characters eventually have to look at their attitude, behaviour, actions and/or personality to open them up to do what they will need to do to resolve their situations. I'm hoping that that is what people will connect with; self realisation. Its not new, to say the least, but it is the main factor in the story.

Scribble

For me, there can not be good without evil and there is no perfect character. Even Palladins and Priest have their faults. lol.

Within my story, my main character is very sure of himself and his abilities, but its his beliefs and faith that will be challenged. So for me, the tale is very much about beliefs that we all have, no matter what they may be and coming to terms with the reality of those beliefs...for right or wrong.

Next is faith and as Nathin finds out, others have more faith in him than he does, and this too disturbs him. Why? Becuase others have so much faith in him that he feels they are willing to die for him and this disturbs him. But...is this true...are they willing to die for him, or for something more in what they believe in and see through him. Needless to say, like life, Nathin's journey of self discovery is a long one, and only at the end do the readers learn what he believes in and what he has faith in. But it will take a lot of help from others for him to discover this. Left on our own, I do not believe we humans would discover more than what lies within our sight, hearing, or limited experience.

For those that have not read far enough, Nathin even has a conversation with a goddess, in which he challenges her and she is very patient in helping him understand what the coming times are about. It will not be the last the time he challenges these gods, his beliefs or faith.

Lastly, I feel the story also is about balance. Balancing ones beliefs vs those of others. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong, one must live by what they feel is right, while accepting that for others, there is something more or less in what they believe. Their beliefs may be discriminatory, racist or sexest, but its their beliefs and until they discover enlightenment, who am I to tell them my way is the only way? If that makes sense.

Just are just my thoughts, on what I feel and thus...what I incorporate into my world, my story.
Nick.

All characters do have to have flaws (I think that is why my 'rin' character keeps drawing me back. I designed some of his flaws off mine and am always interested in watching him change). There is nothing more boring than a flawless character.

Can say I don't think the character always has to know what his flaws are (or even think of them as flaws, some have a fault and don't think it's a bad thing but something to be proud over. For instance a prototypical paladins arrogance in being in the right all the time).

Everyone has flaws, but do you think that even truly evil characters are capable of some good? I think that's an interesting thing to explore; it's been shown that good characters can have evil or just 'not-so-good' tendencies, but what about evil characters? Are they capable of compassion, or mercy, or understanding?

Quote:


darth vader :)

All the "evil" people in history, like Hitler, did some good. They were capable of loving. Not everything they did was "evil". Yet that is the focus of history. We have to have our monsters.

None of my villains are evil. Yet they will be perceived that way. What makes them "evil" is the lengths they will go to so they can attain their goals, which they believe will help other people. And through in their arrogance.

Good and evil are just constructs we have developed over the centuries, imo. Yet, especially in fantasy, writers want to make it black and white. Easier to write and control, I suppose.

So the struggles and emotions are what makes the storytelling vibrant. As the reader gets to know the "bad" guy, what drives him/her, we may still hate the person but see why they think what they are doing is right. We may still perceive them as evil, as the other characters, but we have some insight to make us know better.

I recall a TV miniseries portraying Hitler as he rose to fame giving beer hall speeches. The outcry from the land was that the producers/network were "humanizing Hitler." SHAME!

Well...but HE WAS HUMAN. Just as killers or lesser criminals are wont to say in their defense, "But that wasn't me," so society wants to stand up and call Saddam a bug, inhuman. "How could he be human?" we say in our not so humble opinions. Further, not being human, let us crush him beneath our oh-so-righteous boot.

Each and every human, and those characters we devise and claim not to be human but usually are, has the capacity to experience feelings and construct ideas. The whole range of humanness is available: it is what we and our characters do with our human nature, our ACTION, that defines us.