The Wood Beyond The World Forum Character development

From some of the discussion on Andy's thread on human struggles and checking out the main forums and seeing our esteemed Adam bringing up some points about character development, I thought a private thread on this would be fun to start.

In that thread, Adam said:
Quote:


For me, some what Adam brings up is while while the basic point I don't agree with.

The point is: I believe that all characters are mathematical sets. I don't see it that way. I have a template, a basic idea for the character. As I write, I let the character start to tell me what they want to do, what their personality is. There have been times, my story will veer off because they do something I didn't expect or say something I would never had thought they would say.

For me, the characters develop organically. Since they are central to my story, I have to listen to them, let them tell me their place in the story. So I don't see them as mathematical sets.

So what do the rest of you think?

i take that math part back on account of failing to use a simile where it should have gone. i really wanted to say "steve campri -- that character i'm dislodging from my psychological agenda -- is kind of set up in a way that i can no longer use him. he's like a Set of conditions and terms and is therefore inflexible. the story would have to conform around him." hehe. oops. and like i said, that part of my life is over and dealt with, and thank god: i'd not want life to conform itself around me. how vain.

You know when you got some idea about the point your trying to amke and then it kind of goes on without you and you end up only writing out 5 of 10 points -- that's what kind of happened.

but i'm glad it inspired this thread here in the Wood.

And i'm glad, because i've been discovering some great things as well about what my characters can do and not do and how they withhold suspicions and make up their own minds and all that jazz.

i haven't introduced it yet to the Wood, but my Fragment titles are all precursory stories for Cosmos, and even more messed up than the whisper mages we got Apollo and his destitute father, Serapio. In developing the characters it started as vague memory of journeying from a destroyed civilization across an unknown terrain and reaching a village of grandmothers and children where serapio had thought the world had ended, and instead of rejoicing, he broods, and instead of engaging the other children, Apollo walks around and looks at the place and feels 'different.'

i normally start with idea of what i want to happen and lead into it, but gradually i end up having certain conversations with my characters and they want different things. i had no idea that Apollo could do what he could do until Frag 6, and i had no idea that Serapio suffers a Chronos/Saturnus Delusion when he can't stop imagining eating his young. or that the grandmothers would have some prescience about what might happen "if" -- i calculate some stuff, but i like a tentative plan, but you know how the story likes to tell itself. and what can a writer do but be slave to their characters?

it's discovery, a process of rediscovery and its very exciting, but if i dote to long on things, i end up changing alot. i dont think revision should truly happen until you've got a full thing accomplished (well, i mean minor revisions is ok, but to go all out before the whole tale is done and penned -- yikes).

I don't agree or disagree. Everyone will have a different way in which they compile their plot and create/develop their characters, its interesting to hear them all. However, I'm not sure I understand what is meant by 'mathematical set'.

I would say that generally, my process is similar to Loekie�s. After months of just being content with knowing I wanted to write something but not knowing exactly what, my lead character arrived fully formed one day, along with the plot. The first problem I had with her is that she didn't have a name, and while I was figuring that out, I got to know her. Even now, I'm not completely happy with her name, but it suits her and is the only one that stuck. She must like it. I'm still getting to know her really because although I have plotted the storyline, I've left some freedom for her to react to the situations she finds herself in, possibly altering events. That�s half the fun for me.

With regards to revision, I can't leave a chapter alone until I am happy with it (meaning, it conveys all I mean for it to communicate), or feel stuck and can do no more. In a way I feel it�s a waste of time to move on from something I am not happy with.

Scribble

On revision I'm with you, Scribble. The importance of each piece is to answer the question, "What is it my intention to convey here and have I fully conveyed it?" This applies to the book, the chapter, the scene, the paragraph, and the sentence. A "no" answer anywhere along the way is a call for further revision. I leave a scene when I know I can do no more until I have knowledge of the scene's future, after which I might add foreshadowing of the future, or better be able to determine whether any of the scene is no longer necessary to the story.

But I actually came here to speak of character development:

Characters are born to solve problems. Two kinds: the text and the sub-text problem. In both cases, the problem of the world precedes the arrival of the character, or they show up as one. Let's say the problem is an astronaut is stranded on the moon. Text problem is to rescue her. Sub-text problem is for the protagonist, how to have the knowledge and the fortitude to complete the action of the book, the rescue. Once you know problem, character and setting, then author needs only decide on the end of the action to aim for and the place where action should begin. Then set the character(s) in motion and make sure the story problem is in the end resolved, or remains unresolved for a very good reason. And of course make sure getting from A to Z is an entertaining and bumpy road.

Scribble, names are easy. Call them character 1 and character 2 until you've exhausted yourself getting down the subtext and text of your story and the attributes of the characters that can best carry the actions of the story you envision.

When you are resting from this intense creativity, then find the names, which is not heavy lifting. In my case, every time I hear a name I like (first or last), I write it in a NAMES file. If they are of a particular ethnicity, I bunch them under that ethnicity. By the time I need names, I already have a good idea who my characters intend to be. Then I scan the list of names and choose those I haven't used before, that people will be able to pronounce, and that I will enjoy using for a long time. Not a permanent choice, so no pressure; for until the day the agent has asked for your manuscript, you can change names if you find one that you think better fits the part. Though I have never done so, as by only selecting names you like and that are easy to pronounce, it is hard to go wrong in the first place. Just try to make sure none of the names of your major characters sound or look alike, as this may cause confusion for yourself and reader.

In sum, characters need not exist unless there is a story problem, and they cannot act unless they have a clear goal to begin and a long term goal (which, if different from the original goal, they may be allowed to learn along the way; I may be talking about theme here). A character may early on "appear" to the reader to be aimless, but the author must know this is not the case; and the reader must be informed of characters' goals very early on, as they will not stick with an aimless character unless they are couch potatoes watching bad TV.

I have pretty much the same relationship with my characters as Loekie, it seems.

As I'm following a storyline I hear my characters' conversations -- not just while writing, but whenever I have enough peace and quiet to be able to listen -- and those are usually the pivotal moments for character development and plot movement -- I have very little sense of thinking about such things consciously. I think about themes consciously, and exactly how to convey what I wish to convey, but actual character and many plot details come from somewhere beyond my rational processes. I couldn't write at all if I had to figure everything out rationally.

I do think that my own age and maturity (such as it is) has a lot to do with how I understand my characters. I couldn't write characters at all 30 years ago, because I hadn't lived and reflected enough. Still busy being a character myself, maybe. I know there's a little of myself in every character I write -- either my real self or someone I wish I could be, at least some of the time. In that sense they fulfill the same role as the imaginary friends of my childhood.

Conveying character, like conveying anything else we've conceived about our stories, is an assemblage of tools and tricks, however, it seems to me. Speech patterns, physical mannerisms, methods of thinking or observing -- these all have to be distinct for each character. My villain, Lord Valmur, has a habit of unnecessarily smoothing his hair back from his forehead. His primary opponent, Magus Dovan, likes to stretch and crack his back when he's completed something to his satisfaction. Lord Valmur's catspaw, Magus Paalo, has other ticks and mannerisms. My little heroine, Wythe Weaver, stamps her foot when she's angry, and is troubled by her unruly hair. Faj Barhan nods his head a bit to one side, in a kind of bow, the way Antonio Banderas did in The Thirteenth Warrior. Most of these little qualities "just came to me" -- but once they did I made a conscious effort to use them in certain spots, to reinforce the reader's sense of who the characters are.