The Wood Beyond The World Forum Science and Technology verses ..

Ok fellow Wooders another thread to ponder.

We have touched on magic and how we use it or not use it within our worlds, but this question is a little more pointed I hope.

How do we use Science within our worlds and to what limits?

What level of Technology do we allow?

And how do you reconcile Science and Technology with the magic of your world.

I will hold my thoughts till a few others respond.

Nick.

I think I've avoided a lot of the possible dilemmas with this by keeping my magic anthropological -- it's more like, what if the things that shamanistic systems propose really work.

The fantasy element in my work is also represented by telepathic powers that the "developed" cultures in my world regard rationally. As we study language, mathematics, etc, they also study mind-powers and mind-work. It's a correlative of the "magic" in the more "primitive" societies.

But technological development is affected by the prevalence of psychic powers. There isn't a huge reason to develop transportation if you can communicate across distance with your thoughts -- and almost no reason to develop mechanical enhancements for communication itself -- telegraph, telephone, etc. There will be some change and develpment of transportation as trade becomes more important, of course. And there are localized developments, such as clockwork and indoor plumbing in the far-northern kingdom of Vaaseli -- logical necessities, if you think about it.

In our world the needs of warfare have a lot to do with technical advancements, but I posit a world that's been actively pursuing peace for more than 200 years, so weaponry hasn't advanced beyond medieval methods. I imagine in a world with the splashier kinds of conventional magic, weapons development might be supplanted by magical development, used for destruction. Actually, in my world the dominant force of telepathy gets turned to destructive purposes.

There's some interesting possibilities bringing magic and technology together. I think I mentioned elsewhere that I was reading David B. Coe's first books, and that's what he does -- two cultures, related in the past, that develop along diametrically opposed lines, one toward earth-based magic, one toward earth-destroying technology. Interesting concept.

The technology and magic in my world are sort of one in the same, as they are in yours, at least as far as your telepathic communication goes.

Different societies in my world have larger and smaller numbers of people who use a certain kind of magic (elemental [water, air, fire, earth], Spirit (telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, precognition, etc.) or Rune Magic) and depending on how smart and quick-witted the rulers are there, certain societies depend on magic more for certain things. There's the obvious military advantage; nations with high numbers of elementalists often completely forsake conventional siege weapons in favor of more flexible and diverse elemental attacks (i.e. turning rock walls to mud with magic rather than trying to destroy them with catapults). Certain runes can be activated with a benign incantation to aid a society in everyday living, like drawing water out of deep reservoirs, or helping plants to grow, or providing a sort of sunlight in countries that have long dark periods (like Alaska). And of course telepathy, like in your world, Leah, replaces rather easily other kinds of physical communication. The countries that either don't have very many magic users or that don't believe in their usefulness stick with conventional ways of doing things...water wheels, carrier pigeons, catapults, etc. So in my world the magic sort of is my technology. As far as "normal" technology goes, I just stick with what real world civilizations had access to in the late middle ages...1400s-1500s, etc. I don't like to mess with technology too much....such an emphasis is already placed on magic that if I put the same amount on technology, it would just bog the story down, i think.

Like Leah, I take a more anthropological approach to magic in my writing. I spent some time in college studying religion in the ancient world, particularly during the Roman Imperial period, which means I also spent a lot of energy on the early forms of Christianity.

In my writing, I work with the assumption that magic is a part of religion -- that the various deities are active participants in the world, and that a rare few people (usually, my main characters) have some kind of intimate knowledge of or relationship with them.

How present these supernatural forces are depends on how much attention the culture gives them. For instance, a story set in the Roman Imperial period (such as The Golden A*s, by Apuleius) would involve magic at every turn, because every member of society adheres to one mystical belief or another. Something set in the present, however (think Neil Gaiman), is more likely to approach magic as a sort of subculture.

I prefer to use magic/religion as a backdrop for the conflicts between fallible individuals and cultures -- keep the struggle natural, but the guiding influences supernatural.

As far as technology goes, I don't see why it can't coexist with the sort of magic I've described above. Obviously, the compatibility will vary from story to story depending on the kind of magic devised by the author and the level of technology the story's society is ready for. If I base my culture on ancient Rome, for instance, rather than the Middle Ages, it would make perfect sense for their to be something like indoor plumbing. (The only thing the Romans really lacked was a printing press.) Warfare, also, would be a highly organized, disciplined effort. However, without penicillin, a small flesh wound could still prove fatal.

I know sci-fi and fantasy are technically totally different things, and are unfairly lumped together by publishers and book sellers, but honestly...there's nothing I love more when a story could be classified as either/or. Of course, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. :/

So, what place do guns have in fantasy literature? I, for one, would love to read a story about an Old West gunslinger who is engaged in a timeless struggle between the unseen forces of good and evil. Gandalf Goes West.

Morbius has a whole series of books about a gun slinging western society. Sort of Kelly LeBrock meets a town of undead and other assorted creatures. Heavy metal will print excerpts from them every now and then. OK for fantasy art/graphic stories.

Stephen King's Dark Tower is another sort of cross over...or so I have been told because after the first one I stopped reading the series. I prefer to keep my King in the good ol horror genre.

There are a few others, but thier names escape me at the moment.

I will have more on my thoughts on technology and magic later.

Nick.

Dark Tower is pretty good. Book two and three are really awesome.

i thought about magic for a long time; actually, what i thought about were the things my characters could do, but i never thought of it as magic.

the only character i have with something remotely like a magic is the shade calabronn. but that's not even accurate.

The idea of chanting a spell, or sacred inscriptions and incantations gets me a little bored. I mean, i recognize the religious or spiritual import, but as a means to conjure spells. i don't know. the idea of particular runes used for a particular spell also makes me squeamish.

Also, i really appreciate anyone who avoids the whole "go to wizard school" as a means of showing the novice and their gradual mastery over their art; such Harry Potter-esque things that encourage children to stay in school are ok, but not in my world.

however if there is such a thing as "learning magic" i almost beg that the character be removed completely from society. magically imbued characters inevitably know and see things we all do not, and that kind of knowledge is really frikkin scary to someone who needs to make their ends meet.

instead of magic, i use something i've not named, but decided to describe it as dream substantiation. soemthing that my whisper mages are familiar with, and something Apollo is a master at. However, the shade has no grasp on at all. dream- and myth- consciousness are part of the engine of my chosen "magic."

mostly inspired by psychic phenomena in my own life and less on popular psychic notions. um, kind of why i go overboard on describing things.

I agree about the wizard school thing for the most part. I think it's more realistic for the commoners of a nation to react with fear and suspicion rather than awe when someone exibits extraordinary (and deadly) abilities...like a budding elementalist accidentally burning down the town inn, or causing a flood or something...or a novice telepath using his powers to spy on people...it would be more realistic for him to be shunned and/or feared than loved and accepted. Of course it depends on the culture...but that's another story.

I like to think of magic as a primal force, wild and unpredictable, and the experience of it is different for each person...so really no one could "teach" them how to do anything....it'd be like trying to teach a worm to fly, or something. There's no spellbooks, no records, nothing to study...completely intuitive. That's how it should be, i think.

Wow, we have a lot of thoughts on magic and some on technology.

Let me address magic first.

I am not sure I agree with the fact that magic does not have to be taught. Why?

I believe that the teaching of magic, or whatever anyone calls it upon their world, is not so much as learning how to cast a spell, or recite an incantation, as much as it is in learning how to summon it, use it to your benefit and control the magic. Showing that magic has consequences makes magic real and not just some trumped up power that comes in handy from time to time. The greater the magic, the larger the consequences.

Lets look at the magic of teleportation. Within my world, the person who calls upon this particular magic has to know the longitude and latitude, elevation, seasons and star alignments, of not only where he/she is at, but where they want to go. A miscalculation and they could end up inside of a mountain. Needless to say, it takes a very skilled person to attempt this. Another consequence of this magic could also be that if you miscalculate where the stars are, you could reach your destination perfectly, but at a different time.

Now, does the reader have to know all the fundamental details of magic in your/our worlds. No. Just laying out the basic ground rules for magic allows the readers to understand the magic in your world without getting into all the details of what words have to be spoken. It also allows the reader to use their own imagination.

I would agree that most magic is mental, but within my world, this magic is limited to certain bloodlines, irregardless of the race. Netherron was a seeded planet and the world was created with certain elements that make magic possible.

On my world...there is no good or bad magic, it just the natural elements of this world and how its used. Anything good can be corrupted, and thus the corrupted magic tends to be referred to as dark magic.

Magic in fantasy has become a staple as much as the mythical creatures of fantasy, the unicorn, fairies, dragons, elves, centaurs, etc, etc. Each age has their own version, from the greeks, to the romans, to even the American Indians. They all have magic and mythical creatures of their own cultures. For readers, they bring a certain framiliarty to the story. Tolkien did not totally create his myths or his story. He stole and borrowed from others before him, but he did it very well and made them his own.

Now, moving onto technology mixed with magic. I have read many stories in which this works very well. Ms Andre Norton, (one of my favorite all time SF&F authors), did alot of mixing with her Witch World Series, as well as her Forerunner series. They all have a touch of SciFi with elements of Fantasy, or techology mixed with magic. But she was very careful in limiting the abilities of her magic, because technology almost always trumped her magic, if the magic is attacked directly. Her magic was mostly mental, psyche in all of its various forms, but she could also weave mythical magic as well.

For me, the technology of any world has to be kept within the limits of the world, the time frame that the world is set in and how it affects any magic within that world, or...now does magic affect it. Just having modern plumbing and such to me is natural...the romans had it. And the Greeks were pretty good surgeons and dentist for their time period. But the technology I keep away from is more advance technology of industry. Once you move into heavy industry...I think it can destroy fantasy. Now your crossing into the mix genre's. But that too can work, if properly done. Its just not straight fantasy.

Ok...its late and I am starting to ramble...I will now turn you back to your regularly scheduled features.

Nick.

Two words: collective unconscious.

We all have certain notions implanted in our psyches -- it's part of our humanity -- and magical creatures, magical abilities, gods and so forth are all part of that. In modern man this stuff usually takes shape mostly in metaphor, but if we reach a little deeper metaphor becomes reality.

What we call "fantasy" nowadays arose from writers reaching deeper -- Tolkien in his scholarly way, Lovecraft in his more visceral way, etc.

Another word: Dreams.

In our dreams we experience this stuff directly -- the ability to fly, to teleport, to transform things into other things -- at the drop of a thought.

What the discipline of psychology discovered in the late 19th and early and mid 20th centuries (Freud and Jung etc.) is a huge part of the foundation of fantasy literature -- ancient and "primitive" mythology are illuminated by psychology.

For a specific alternate take on the typical wizard-school literature I'd like to recommend Jonathan Stroud's Bartemeus Trilogy. The Amulet of Samarkind is the first book. They're classified in the bookstores as Young Readers, but they're a good deal darker (and more realistic, socially and psychologically speaking) than Harry Potter. In Stroud's vision the wizards rule the world, not the "muggles" (to borrow Rowling's nomenclature.) There's a kind of magical fascism which provides an alternate history of modern Western civilization. The young "hero" discovers virtue through his amoral familiar, a djinn called Bartemeus, and a non-magical girl who's a member of the resistance to the magical tyranny in force in modern Europe. The djinn is a great humorous character.

Hmmm... I don't think I have any science or technology as such in my current project. There are Magiens who experiment with natural substances, and eventually put them to use in daily life if they prove useful, but thats all. I've never really thought about it as it doesn't fit with the world I've created.

Generally though I think it could work depending on the type of magic and type of technology. How they work alongside each other (or together) must be logical.

I disagree that magic cannot/should not be taught. Magic ability is one thing, but knowing how to use and control it is quite another and they do not always go hand in hand. Its like having a machine gun in your hand, trigger finger on the ready, possible to go off in any direction at any time depending your mood. It must be controlled and understood. Although I agree that a 'school' doesn't have to be the place to learn it.

But I suppose it comes down to our perceptions of magic. What we feel magic is and how it works. For some, the simple fact that someone has powerful magical ability may mean they will know or learn how to use automatically. while for others, that control comes about from practice, patience and teachings. Its all relative - but hey, thats what makes our stories so different ::biggrin:: .

Scribble

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Checked in on Scribble, and reread Nick:

I recall Loekie addressing this in another thread -- he said he's portraying an industrial use of magic -- magical assembly line sort of thing, to produce everyday goods, as I recall. That sounds like a really creative way of mingling technology and magic.

Thinking about it a little more, I really don't see any problem in mingling industrial or post-industrial society and magic. Either magical or technological forces will dominate -- or else they'll blend and compliment each other -- or, as in Gaiman (as Elise mentioned) magic will be a sub-force that leaks into the "real" world (from the collective unconscious perhaps -- seems to me that's what American Gods was pretty much about -- the inability of modernity to hold down ancient beliefs) -- whew, talk about rambling.

This might actually be the new horizon for fantasy -- away from the conventional sword and sorcery, the largely medieval subcreation, to worlds where our conflicting impulses -- to control/dominate nature or to cooperate with it on a deeper level -- interact overtly.

A good example of using magic in everyday life can actually be found in the show. Even though the call it bending instead of magic (which is good I think) they still use it practically. In Earth-bender cities, they use their abilities for public transportation and the like. And in the water city, they make everything out of ice so if something breaks they can just fix it quickly with their "magic". It's actually a really good show.

Andy -- you mean Avatar? I love Avatar. I love the approach to magic, but I also love the characters -- especially the villains -- the disgraced Fire Nation prince and his old uncle in particular. They're not really villains, I guess. I like the blind earth-bender girl too. I can't wait for the new season.

I had to laugh at this one Leah. My 4 almost 5 year old grand daughte introduced me to Avatar one night and now we sit and watch it together. She knows all the characters and can pretty much understand the story line...and she is not even 5 yet. She might have to carry on the Tales of Netherron once I am gone. lol Now would that not be a hoot.

Nick.

Maybe having kids is my excuse to keep reading picture books and watching cartoons -- though I think I'd do it anyway. It's nice to share this stuff with my boys. Some of the anime they watch just seems stupid and annoying to me, but some of it's darn good. Avatar is western in it's art and animation, and even in its storytelling, though it's laced with pop-eastern philosophy. Sort of magical Kung Fu for the kiddies.