The Wood Beyond The World Forum Commercial verses Literary fic..

Many writing teachers will tell you that Characters drive the plot, not the other way around. But what is plot? Author James Scott Bell teaches that there are two basic lines of plot. The literary plot and the commercial plot, which is how agents, editors, publishers, and the bookstores classify work.

A literary plot often is more leisurely in its pace and more about the inner life of a character, or what we call a Character driven plot.

A commercial plot is mostly about action, with quicker pacing, and the characters facing things out of their control, with limited time devoted to characterizations.

Bell, clearly states that all plots are character driven, but characters need strong plots to pull the readers in or they will never know how wonderful your story is. Bell also points out that the writers who are selling in todays market use a combination of both forms of plotting, though the agents and publishers who know what the readers want, tend to lean towards those story's with a commercial apeal. Good writing yes, but the pacing should be quicker, and the stakes higher.

The writer Ann Perry noted in Donald Maass's Book, 'Writing the Breakout Novel,' and I quote, 'If the average reader is not involved in the life of the characters, he will stop after a chapter or two at the best. And we writers want the average reader."

So the question begs, if we want the average reader, along with those that are selective, how does the writer craft a story to appeal to all. We can not, but by combining the elements of both Commerical and Literary plotting, we will reach a larger audience.

In every book that I have read on the craft of writing, all have one element in common. They all note early, in one form or another, that for writers who avoid the commerical aspects of writing and have an attitude that their audience will find them, then they are limiting their audience, and that is both commerical and literary suicide.

So, my fellow Wooders, I ask of you...how important is pacing, plotting, and the 3 act structure in your writing? How do you craft the hero's journey and do you consider your work as commercial, literary, or a combination there of?

Nick.

A very interesting topic.

I think plotting and pacing are essential in any kind of fiction. Timing of when certain things within your story are revealed is of great importance to how the story comes across to the reader. Plotting your story will prevent possible lags in the beginning, middle or end when events are not spaced out properly and ensure that you are following the correct story arc pattern. Regardless of what type of fiction, this is always the same - the pacing may not as fast for literary, but it is still evenly done with dramatic points at the correct part of the story arc.

I disagree with Bell. I don't believe that all stories are character driven, though I do believe that characters are essential to the story. Characters cannot control what happens to them. We do. They can only react to it. The situations we place our characters in are an external element of the story - called the plot.

I found Bell's book quite good, but I disagreed with him on various aspects and found his little catchphrases confusing and hard to remember, such as The Disturbance and the Two Doorways (rather than just story arc), Bells Pyrmid, LOCK system blah blah blah. Books on plot can only help so much because every story will be different.

However, I do believe that he gave very good advice at some points. The three act structure cannot be tested. It is what works.

I'm not sure how to reach both the literary and commercial readers, and I'm not sure if I want to. What is the need to do so? The book will be marketed in a certain way anyway, so the readers will mostly be of one type, but I don't see the need to try and coax both. I consider my work as commercial but it does not mean that I do not endevour to take care with my characters in ensuring they developing, or do not take time to use my descriptive talent to its fullest. I do so because I believe it important, and I enjoy it, not to sway certain readers.

Scribble

I agree, Scribs. I do not think we go in and say I am going to write a book with a commerical plot line, or literary plot line. Its where the publishers and book stores place it, which is why Bell does not like the terms because they pigeon hole a work.

I liked Bells use of the door ways, for me they made sense, but perhaps because I had not read the other book you mentioned. I think in my own work, Nathin faces a door from which he can not return once in each section, so that would be at least 3 doors for me. As for his LOCK system, I think each author that teaches or writes on the subject has their own system. None are set in stone, and only offered as advice.

What I got from Bell was a look at my own work after the fact. And alot of the things he noted I did see in my own work without realising why I did certain things a certain way. For me, his book helped me to understand what I was doing right, more so than what I was doing wrong. I think that is just as important, to understand what we are doing right.

So...any other thoughts on plotting, be it commercial or literary or even mythic structure?

Nick.

I guess I'm just too damn arrogant to read books on how to write.

I don't like the distinction between literary and commercial. To my mind there's either good storytelling or not-so-good storytelling or plain crap. When good storytelling meets thoughtful themes, you get "literature" -- tends to stand the test of time, even if it doesn't make the best-seller list.

What's good storytelling, then? I think it is character-driven -- that is, the characters are three-dimensional, complex individuals -- real people -- and they make choices that are partly determined and partly free, just like in real life, and the plot develops out of those decisions. Crap storytelling has a mechanical plot with flat characters slotted into it, just to move the story along. Not-so-good storytelling can be many things, but it often grows out of a writer having a particular obsession or fetish -- a certain type of hero or villain, a thematic hobbyhorse to ride -- that keeps him from letting the characters and plot develop according to their internal necessity.

I don't think character-driven means that the author relinquishes control of the plot to the characters. It just means that a believable and interesting plot has to develop out of the characters' natures and their interaction. The author is in charge of the characters, but has to be true to them -- has to listen to them and record their behavior and thoughts faithfully, not force them into doing things just to get the plot to go where he wishes.

Plot is just a set of situations influenced by characters. If the characters don't act, there's no plot, just a set-up for one. How they act is for the author to discern and portray.

I also don't think that anyone can prescribe what one must write in order to sell. Of course there are formulas that always do well -- beach books, airplane books, read 'em once and throw 'em away and never give 'em another thought. They sell like anything. (And I guess they qualify as crap by my definition.) But all kinds of other things sell too, often very well. If we're trying to write good stories we have to be true to the story itself first and foremost. If it's best told in stream-of-consciousness, so be it. If it's best told through an exchange of letters, so be it. If it's best told through transcripts of tape-recordings, so be it. If it's picaresque it won't have the three act structure. If it's experimental it might not have anything that those writers of "how to write" books are recommending. But it can still be an excellent story, well-told. If it's good, it will find an audience.

Getting published is part luck, part connections, part perseverance. If you've got a reputable publisher and a decent book you will sell.

Writing is all perseverance.

I recommend a book called 78 reasons why your book may never be published & 14 reasons why it just might by Pat Walsh, founding editor of MacAdam/Cage (publishers of Ella Minnow Pea.) If you're pretty sure about your writing in general, and very sure your story's worth telling, this book comprises the next step in getting published.

And persevere!

Leah's definition of "character driven" is so perfect it need only be quoted:

Quote:


As to the market:

Life is too short to sweat about the market before the final page is written.

As I see it, the writing must come first. Until the deed is done, there is no need to bother about the pigeonhole. When time comes to write the query letter, then tell whomever you are writing you intend to fill their pigeonhole.

There is nothing wrong with thinking ahead, but the great danger in molding the writing around the pigeonhole is that author chances allowing such considerations to dictate the course of the writing.

If I write the book I want to write, in the best tradition I've spent my lifetime loving, and if I've executed to the degree my aspirations would propel me, then it is a given I will either find an agent or publisher, or die before I make the sale. Either way the product is mine.

If I lack talent and have no name, then whatever I write will fail to publish.

That the product will be all mine, my truth, from my heart, with no cookie cutter anywhere near it, will likely do more to find me into the halls of the published than all the sweating over marketing a product that doesn't even yet exist in all its fullness.

As to plot:

Plot is getting from A to Z. "A" is the opening of the book, which requires a problem, a setting in which the problem exists, along with characters suitable to perptrating the problem (antagonists) and fixing the problem (protagonists). Once you have these elements, you must decide on "Z," the solution to the problem, the ending. Then you need to decide how you will handle voice (first person, third rotating, etc.), how much time (weeks, decades?)the book will cover, how much space (wordcount) you will restrict yourself to in presenting the problem and solving it.

Then you need only decide exactly when and where the status quo becomes the extraordinary and begin page one there. From then on action is plot. As Leah says, the action must appear to fit the needs of the characters, not merely the whims of the author. Plotting then becomes finding the most interesting way to accomplish what author knows must be accomplished in order to reach "Z" in the most satisfying way for the reader (while of course completing the authors' intentions regarding theme, which is presumably the reason for writing in the first place).

You need only be sure each scene leaves the reader right where you want reader. If you follow this way, I predict you will not know what each scene will bring, in its details, until it is written, and not knowing, you will be assured that the reader cannot guess where your plot is going either, except in the same general way author can before the writing. When you get near the prescribed number of words, plot the last few scenes carefully as possible, write them, then stop writing.

This method allows maximum fluidity in plotting: you will always be able use the best ideas that come along, rather than slavishly sticking to a preconceived outline.