The Wood Beyond The World Forum Magic in fantasy

Starting a new thread, with copies and pastes of a couple of posts from Loekie's role-playing thread.  First, Catshori's:

Actually yes my magical system was developed outside of DnD, it was created after I had spent a long time reading a Manga called Samurai Deeper Kyo, the entire story had a lot of singular sword styles that were quite realistic. It also talked a lot about the distance between a fighter and his oppoenent, really just covered basic Samurai fighting style.

Now where does the magic come from? It's not magic, while I was influenced by a simple minor inspired idea, much of my concept came wheni was in physics class. Learning much about equations reminded me of the golden mean. I started to wonder, what if perhaps there was something about it? Like your basic Futhark, Runes equal to a symbol which are found near an element, an animal, rock formation or other things. A Rune could be something discovered while toppling bodies. What happened is that they were translated into a fixed language that could be written. The only problem is that Runes are highly literal, when you put explode on something, you get that desired effect. You are not casting a spell you are telling basically the world that you desire a reacting so you spell it out, like a /command to a computer of mud.

Soul weaving works on the idea that since souls are a piece of energy that they can be reworked. The idea was influenced by the Necromongers with their Lord Marshall's ability to rip out and tear apart souls. So I played with the idea that you could create an artifact that basically states, "When I do this motion  said object can pass into the spirit and thus remove life from targeted individual."

The final system is more related to the Siddhis of Vajrijana Buddhism, who believe that once remove a self imposed illusion of enlightenment that you are able to move the illusion. So a Mystic another type of "caster" is very much like a guru. He or she can go beyond the normal world and see how it really works, much like someone in LOTR that sees aspects of the Elder days and how they work.

 

Bill's our resident Buddhist scholar (for real); I'm sure he'll be interested in this last.

Now, Nick:

 

What is Magic?

In any roleplaying game, the rules of magic have to be understood by all the players as well as the GM.  Without this understanding and agreement up front to keep the game and gamers on a level playing field. 

But in writing, is the fine details of magic neccessary for the reader to understand that magic exist?  Look at some classic films, some hapless newcomer reads from a book, usually in latin, and suddenly something magical happens.   What was the magic?  The words?

Within my world, the magic is woven into the very bedrock of the world.   Its the world that is magic to those who know how to call upon it.  Nathin and others are often heard saying, there is power in words, but is it really, or is the power within the one who calls the words?   For me...the magic of my world is a matter of the mind, which takes years of study to learn the techniques.   I really do not go into detail about how magic arrives, or what one must do to perform this magic.   The readers see what is occuring, a little hint of how the magic works is given here and there, but for the most part there are no long drawn out details.  

Is this a cop out then that my world, or magic is not fully developed?   I don't believe so, I just don't want to get caught up in the Robert Jordan descriptions of how everything works.   The characters are my story, the magic and action is secondary, which there is enough of to keep the commercial plot readers happy, I think. 

 

Nick.   

And Gayna:

 

Now it's my turn.

I don't have magic in my world.  I have mind-powers. Only superstitious people think of any of it as magic.  The "civilized" cultures regard mind-work as an art and science. The uneducated in those cultures recognize that definition, but may still believe in powers that transcend such distinctions.  They think of primitive mind-work as a kind of magic, available through communion with demons.  In a way they're right, if "demon" is understood in the sense of a spirit of a living thing.  Cultures that remain dependent on the natural world, in its natural state, maintain that kind of communion -- identifying with totems from the natural world, communicating with the spirits of plants as well as animals -- and they do have deeper, more practical powers than the civilized people who have reduced mind-work to a force subject to the will of the intellect.  The "primitive" see a spiritual dimension to everything around them, places as well as living beings, and they draw power from that, channeled through their minds, to manifest itself in the physical world according to their designs.  Such powers cannot work for any destructive purpose without severe negative consequences for whoever is doing the mind-work -- death, or spiritual illness leading to death.

I do a fair amount of oblique explanation of how the scientific mind-powers operate, and of how the ones based in the spiritual-natural world are employed.  It's mostly elaboration of things I've experienced either in meditation or under the influence of various mind-altering substances (in my youth, guys, in my youth.)  I've drawn a bit on the shamanistic beliefs I've read about, but even more importantly, I think, I've tapped into subconscious or unconscious memories of what my own ancestors believed and practiced.

Well, for me, I am following a more "traditional" view for magic. It did come from AD&D but got filtered through David Eddings, Stephen Donaldson and sprinkled with some of my own ideas.

To be able to perform strong magic in my world, it is a three-fold process. Your body is needed to draw in the energy. Your mind is needed to mold the energy into the "spell" you want. Your spirit is needed to send out the resulting "change".

The end result is one has to be strong in all three parts to be able to a "magic user". If just one part of the triad is weak, whatever you are trying to do may backfire, not work at all or come out as a wet fart. Excluding training takes time and isn't easy, a powerful "magic user" who is feeling sick or is distracted will make mistakes. This provides some interesting tactics for non magic users when fighting those adept in magic.

Magic is a critical aspect for Tangled Threads, since the main thread is stopping the plans of a person which could destroy the very fabric of magic in my world.

To throw in a twist, I have three types of people who can do magic:

Natural talents: They, at birth, are attuned to magic and show their full talent early on.
Wild talents: They only become attuned to magic during puberty.
Lieg: They become attuned to magic slowly and often even beyond puberty.

That is a brief overview of how I am using magic in my world.

Very interesting I have some things you might find related.

For your higher ranked "mind powered" cultures, there is a books series, now I might get zapped for this, but it has one of the most inventive magic systems I know. This is the Black Jewel Seriously and the entire system of magic is based on these stones inherited at birth. Now the actual magic, Craft is really attacks on the mind, ability to summon shields and is very psionic in design. Their actualy magical forms are Webs, spells the require various materials and have to be woven, and can have a timed effect.

For your idea on natural world and spirits, sounds VERY much like the animist religion of Shinto. Everything has a spirit, the Kami are everywhere, they are divine gods and simple spirits and priests can deign power from these guys.

Also in the Obsidian trilogy I found my personal maigcal source systems. Wild Magic which you ask the natural world for a spell and then it gives you a payment, clean a pond, help a mother for a year. And then you have the Demonic or Endarkened system which is about causing pain and death, they are required to then hold this power and the negative feelings give them the ability to create spells and other things.

On symbols, in some Buddhist sects again mostly the Tibetan sect known as Vajriayana, or Diamond Vehicle, they create Mandalas. Which are structures of sand or symmetrical designs that are to help you attain enligntenment. Bill would know more, and I'm going to keep ranting!

Would be okay for me to make a thread on the series I'm writing or is that only in special cases?

Make any thread you like.  The Wood is organic, you know.

I'm definitely exploring animist traditions.  Mine come from the Sami, the people who herd reindeer in the far north of the Scandinavian countries and Finland (you might know them as Lapps.)  They're my mother's people.  I like to think I might be descended from shamans.

That's really impressive, Sami are a pretty impressive people and I think that personal lineage can have some definite impact on your writing. Personally, I'm a mixture of British, Scottish, and some Welsh. Primarily I've roughly between half to three fourths ethnic gael, and some swedish.

Did you know that teh official language of Finland is actually called Saomi?

Yeah, Finns call themselves and their language Suomi.  I don't know if there's a connection.  The Sami are to the Finns and Swedes and Norwegians sort of as First Nations or Native Americans are to the European colonizers and conquerors.  Sami is a separate language (I've poked around a bit in it, though I know nothing of its grammar) from Finnish.  There are simliarities.  The "civilized" people of my northern kingdom of Vaaseli are based on the dominant Finnish-Russian culture of the pre-19th c. -- the Telmi are based on the Sami.

The Sami religion really was persecuted and wiped out in the 19th c.

If one of my kids wanted to move to Finland, they could claim their Sami heritage legally.  After this generation the blood will be too diluted.

That really does suck, for me to claim Irish Heritage I have to prove my relation to at least a grandparent who was full blooded Irish. I'm actually going this year to Ireland, Galway's Gaelic quarter to study literature, Gaelic language, and music. I think it will be a great oppurunity to learn help my writing in many ways.

I think when it comes to my magical system that it is in some ways influenced by the Gaelic idea of the Daoine Sidhe. My original race that lead to the creation and evolution of the current races in the Skare was called the Fae.

Magic is interesting for me think about regarding what writing i'm working on. I made a decision regarding the writing i was doing a few years ago; a decision fueled by desire to not resemble another author's universe: No guns, no swords, no magic.

it sort of works, except the magic part when coupled with a reader's imagination who'll more than likely say,"Dude, that's so effin magic."

i tried to do the magic in terms of "say a specific word" or do a specific "gesture."

i began writing Cosmos with a few ideas in mind: cellular behavior regardless of conscious thought, how do you metaphorically recreate the big bang, how myth and dream make all things possible without explanation.

that brings me to gods. Gods don't need magic do they? As much as we all like imperfect characters, i really like imperfect gods, especially if they hide that fact to save their necks. it makes that discovery so much sweeter.

i have one character who has what might be called a technological weapon wielder. Shade Calabronn is endowed with a psi-glove, a strange weave of fabric with sensory needles that corresond to certain points along the lines of his palm. He feels a dull buzz in his brain when he's ready to project his mind through his glove. Psi indicates two things: psiotic (or psionic) and psi as in pressure measurements in an air tire. So, with the psi glove, Shade projects a force capable of crushing or exploding objects, structures, people, just by directing his hand at it. his other hand is where things get a little more magical. Along his right hand are thin flexible wires that follow his fingers. some jewels sit between the knuckles. these jewels are also connected to his neural pathways into his body and brain. like notes on a piano, the shade can use one, combine some for different effects, create melody or harmony but not literally because through the jewels he coagulates spiritual substances, hardens blood, sees vague forms beyond his sight (beyond walls and doors and s**t) and beyond that is able to ripple these effects by placing his right hand into his left.

Dude also leaps around like a graphic novel super hero.

Magic is also seemingly possible in a group of people i call Whisper Mages. I like the name too much to scrap it. I should call them Dream Cloaks. Whisper mages are those who've got nothing left to give society because they dream too much. they don't work well, they don't 9-5 too well. So they take the cloak, disappear from everything and stand in the shadows.

they have two important tools: their cloaks and their whispers. the cloak allows whatever shadow they stand in to completely blanket them so that they became maybe 80% invisible, so long as they don't compromise their visibility they can go virtually unseen. Donning one's hood can equally conceal their face, but that's kind of freaky to do in public. The other tool is the whisper. This is where things get magical and words become difficult to explain. the whisper is an androgynous spirit double that the whisper mage houses in their body. They are both the body and the whisper but can send it into the world to scout things, sense things, it is a localized area of prescience. it helps whisper mages navigate corridors and avoid detection. whisper mages also use them to knock people aside, or to his things like a ghost knocking s**t off counters like diversions, but the words to describe what it is they do falls short. best i've come up with is "whisper shot" which sucks in my opinion

so without using wands, or spell books or chanting incantation, the use of magic always seems to require an explanation of sorts into what it is the character is "doing" and how it's being "done."

But once you establish the context of  charcter's perfrmances, you can just say things easier from,  the Shade Calabronn brushed his hand through the air, effectively crushing the man's head, to, the shade calabronn crushed the man's head.

Along the lines with what Loekie fashions as magic, where a charcter must be balanced it is possible sometimes for whisper mages to allow their whispers too much autonomy which always ends in disaster. so focus is very important. nothing is worse then sending your whisper to scout in the darknes around patrolling guards and having it turn around and expose your location.

I have magic in my world, which occupies a less dense universe.

The indigenous people of the planet Geaeh started out in what will eventually be a science fiction story about a non-violent world that discovers a planetary body is on a collision course with their planet. Having managed somehow to miss warring on each other, they have a technologically advance civilization, but no way to deflect the incoming planetary body. No war = no destructive weapons = no rockets to blast the Bad Nasty out of the Sky. With roughly 300 years before The End, their decide that if sentient life is to continue, it must find a safe place--even though many feel the impact of the planetary body will destroy the planet. Through gene splicing, a large number of people are given the ability to hibernate; the side effect of this is the ability to change shape at will. This was a happy accident; they shaped into critters who can hibernate and survive like some frogs.

The planetary body skips through the atmo on the neighbouring planet, slowing the p.b. enough Geaeh's gravity well pulls it into orbit, creating enough strain one of the three moons splits, and the planet experiences an axial shift. Some people survived hibernation, and the majority of them remembered who they were. Those who don't continue of with life as the animal shape they took to hibernate dictates.

The axial shift et al created a condition wherein at certain times, folks who die by sudden violent means here on Earth, wake up on Geaeh. This started about 940 BC, our time.

To determine how the magic worked, I took some First Nations/Native American ideology, added a bit of Norse and British Isles mythos, gave it a good stir, and then let it work on the back of the stove. Some of the magic is based on AD&D, some isn't, and some I forget where it came from. There is a school that teaches Geaehn and Come Throughs how to use their magic, where there is really only one taboo: talking or trying to contact the dead, regardless of the reason. As for what kinds of magic�? Take those who have lost the most consistently on Earth since 940BC, run'em through the Space/Time Continuum in such a way that any latent magic ability is keyed, and then stand back and see what happens. Those who use magic are not infallible; they have off-days. At least one character dies because she was having an off-day.

The Geaehns are shape-changers. When they shape into something smaller than themselves, they cast off the excess mass as sweat-smelling water. If they shape into something larger than themselves, they must do so near water so they can take on the extra mass. In whatever shape they choose, there is a small lump between the eyes of the assumed form, encapsulating whatever clothing they were wearing. The shape changers wear a lot of leather because it can be altered better than any fabric.

Some of the people who Come Through from Earth can work magic. Little stuff at first, because most everyone is a bit freaked when they first wake up and more worried about where they are and how they got there.

Then it's discovered that Geaehns and Earth folk can make babies together. Nearly all of those babies can work magic, but they had to learn how to use it and for some, the best they can do is bend spoons or curdle milk. Some can�t work magic but they carry the potential as a recessive gene. Using magic on Geaeh means getting burned by iron. Fortunately, Geaeh is an iron poor planet. Some folks don't like magic and refuse to believe they are anywhere but Earth and the shape changing Geaehns and magic-able humans are an evil that must be destroyed so the five moons become one and the land will regain its familiar form. Thus violence is introduced to the Geaehns.

I do have an exception to the iron burn rule. A fellow whose mother named him after a noita named Tilli of Kuru because, having Come Through from Finland, she thought he'd grow up to be a fine noita with a name like that. The fellow was raised on the stories of the noitas, wizards who lived in iron houses with iron fences, and fly about on iron pestles, in a community of Finns. He's immune to iron burn because he has been taught from the cradle that iron and magic go together. He's featured in my second book, Sorry, No Refunds. Leah, when you have time, I'd like to pick your brain about the Suomi. Tilli's parents were amber fishermen on the Baltic and I'd like to know if I've made any leaps of logic or perpetuate stereotypes that are going to annoy anyone.

There's also a family of traders who are a combination of Clackamas (west coast Native American), Maori, Hawaiian, and Nez Perce. The ability to work magic runs strong with weather workers, levitators, healers, and language experts. The patriarch of the family is an old school shaman; the matriarch, his mother, she hasn�t told me what she does yet. This family is a constant through the two finished books as well as in the third. It all started as one book but keeps growing as I go.

I dip into First Nations/Native American ideology because I have a fair amount of First Nations/Native American ancestry. Near as I can figure, most of my father's maternal ancestors had a thing for hairy foreign men. The rest of my ancestors hail from Norway, England, Ireland, Scotland, Normandy/France, Germany, and Prussia; they may not have been particular but they were very enthusiastic.

Like Leah, I have a hunch some of my First Nations ancestors may have been shaman and/or si'oua, and did some extensive exploration of, um, altered states in my 20s and 30s. Mushrooms figured prominently. I've read tarot and rune stones for years (I supported myself for a while doing natal birth charts), and have a fair knowledge of herbal medicine.