The Wood Beyond The World Forum Conversation with an agent

I was talking to an agent today about sending Servant to him. Robert is an Australian agent, writer and publisher so he knows the business from all sides.

His advice was that with a series you need to have the first two books finished with the third one planned out because if a publisher accepts your first book you will get about nine months to finish the second book and about six months after that to complete the third book. The third book, however is usually easier because you are getting paid to write. If you are still trying to sell then you need to start a separate book or series so you have a couple of books to sell.

He also warned me to be patient. It can take up to four years to get into print. A client of his was accepted by a big publisher. Every body loved it, except the finance dept who knocked it back without reading it because they thought it would be too expensive to print. Wouldn't that just make you cry! 

He also said synopsises are hard and they don't get any easier, no matter how many books you've written.

Gayna

What that agent says makes perfect sense.  That's why I'm working on three books at once -- the first one I wrote needs major surgery (too long -- out of control and too expensive to print!) -- the second needs some minor adjustment (plot slips some gears, slighlty too long) -- the third (fortunately the first chronologically) is much more controlled, and also more sensational (I think!)  I believe in a few months I'll be in a perfect position to query agents.

This series question is a big issue with agents and publishers alike.  Both Donald Maass and Nathin Bransford strongly discourage serials as a first attempt.  Lots of reasons.    Which is why the first has to stand on its own, and if successful then you can pitch the idea of a second or third.

I know from my own experience, my last agent did not even want to talk serial though she could tell from the story that it was.  She wanted a stand alone and if she could sell that, and it did ok, then we would discuss the rest of the trilogy. 

As to the time frame, again, from experience and talking to other writers, its all about timing.  Most agents will want a year contract, and that is to try to sell.  If they sell, then the contract is automaticly extended by at least another year.  Options they call it.  Once the book is sold, it can take up to a year before the book is put into the rotation.  It has to be planned.  Most publishers want to spread the work out and there are certain time periods where certain genre's sell better than others. 

As to the rewrites and stuff, that can be anywhere from 3 to 6 months of back and forth before a final proof is approved.  Sometimes longer if you have an editor that is swamped, or they are willing to work with you to get it just right.   Once the book goes into the print mode, pre release copies are sent out to the buyers as well as the proper reviewers, such as PW.   Marketing also has to come  into play, on when to display, advertise, etc, and that is if they feel the work deserves it.   Most new writers will not get the advertising budgets and their books will be pigeon holed on the shelves without anything more than a poster on a wall.  Hopefull not in the employees break room. 

Back to the series...the publishers generally will not make a commitment until the 1st does well enough to show interest.  And then yes, they want everything yesterday.   Which is why they give a generous advance, so you can write full time and make the deadlines.

Of course all of this is provided you go with a traditional publisher and not some POD, Vanity, or company like Publish America.   Do not even get me started on the PA scams.

Nick.

Man! Gayna got my hopes all up with the "having 2 books done of the series." I thought, "I have 3 done and the 4th in rough draft!"

Then Nick crashed it all with the agents not considering a series for a first time author. Bah humbug. Now I'm depressed.

Reb,

Sorry... : (.    But that is the general rule.   The first must stand on its own merits for a first time writer.  Now, that is not to say a particular agent or editor will not make an exception, but it is an exception and not the general rule.    Me, I am bucking the general rule.   Mine is a series.  Which is why I have to make sure it captures an agents attention. 

I had interest in it once, so it could happen again in a better version.  I have five wonderful rejection letters from five of the larger publishers on the storyline and world, but I had too many other problems they did not want to take on.  Each said almost the same thing...clean it up, eliminate redundancy, work on POV and Active Voice.  But each also did say to resumbit when cleaned up.  My last agent suggested waited a minimum of two yeard before resubmitting to let the memory of rejection fade. 

Don't give up.  I personally feel that in fantasy fictions, series are generally more accepted than other genre's.   The way I look at it, is that agents and publishers know that in fantasy fiction, the author has spent a great deal of time creating a unique world, and there are more than just a single story lingering there.  After all, Tolkien set the standard for trilogies, larger than life tales.   But that is a personal opinion and not a known fact.

Nick. 

Nick:

You made a remark about a promo poster being "hopefully not in the employees breakroom."  Well, of course, it should be out on the salesfloor (hopefully near a display of your books, or at least near your section) but making sure the bookselling staff knows about your book really does help.  One thing I'd want to know from a publisher was whether they'd be aggressive about getting advance copies to booksellers and reviewers. That's much more important than any other kind of advertising.

The B&N store I worked at didn't do enough to distribute advance copies to staff, in my opinion. When I first worked there we had a store subscription to Publishers' Weekly and the New York Review of Books, but that was cancelled to save money after a couple of years. All we had as resource material on new books was a trade magazine for paperbacks and the company bulletin, pushing what B&N buyers chose to push -- which was naturally what the big boys in publishing were pushing, not necessarily the best books published.

I'm thinking more and more that the best publishers for folks just starting out are the ones who are really traditional -- who have strong relationships with independent bookstores as well as the usual connections with the chains, and who value booksellers' ability to persuade customers to read particular books.

Conventions are a good place for us to be right now, for that matter, if there are any in the vicinity.  I made Ron go with me to MidsouthCon last spring, and even he had a good time, and I met a couple of authors.  Bigger cons get agents and publishers too. 

There's a small one here in Albuquerque in August, called Bubonicon (after the prevalence of bubonic plague-carrying fleas in the state's rodent population.)  As all I'll have to pay is the registration fee (not hotel or meals) I'm definitely going.

Loekie,

I agree with the con's and the value they have.  But I have also seen some real stinkers in the past.  Building a reader/fan base, no matter how, is very important to the writer to keep the publishers interested.

Leah,

I could not agree more that publishers need to do more to get the word out to the sales people who can help point a potential customer to the proper isle, shelf and book.   I have read alot in the trade journals how advertising budgets work, and those end cap displays at most bookstores are bough, same with tables and what nots.  They are all paid for in order to get the books in the best possible location to be noticed, instead of on a standard shelf with 20 or more other writers and their past work.   But the publisher has to have faith in the work above the standard advance that was given, in order to justify the additional expense of buying space.   As has been pointed out, the editors and accquiring agents may love the work, but the guys in marketing have to feel good about the possible sales numbers to justify additional expesnse above the advances already give.   After all, the advance is a gamble that the work will sell the minimur amount and more, in order to recoup all associated cost.   We writers only see the advance, but there is so much more cost associated with a book. 

I am sure this is the same with the smaller mom and pop stores in that the sellers offer mom and pop either bonus's for displaying or discounts, if not directly buying prominant space.  Mom and pop have to make a dollare too.   Like I said, its a business and not a community service for arts sake.  

Ms Andre Norton had several books stores during her life.  Considering she was once a researcher/libarian at the Library of congress, its not hard to understand.  It was a business though as much as it was a love for her.  She noted in several of her letters to me that it was very hard work and not always as rewarding as she had thought.   Even her fellow friends/writers were always demanding more display space.  Even for work nearly out of print.  Of course, I am sure she displayed her work in the open.   What good is having a bookstore if you can not take advantage of it as a writer.  ; )  God I miss that woman.    

Anyway, there is a reality to publishing that none of us want to think about.  Publishing is a business and not a community service for the sake of art.  No matter how much we want to dream that writing is more art than business.  Meaning, the god almighty dollar drives what is published, and what gets sent to reviewers and buyers and marketed.  

Donald Maass has a very detailed thoughts on the state of the publishing industry today and he feels for new writers.  It is going to be harder to break into traditional publishing because of the glut of writers now compared to 20-50-100 years ago.   

Donalds take, to paraphase...Its the top writers, who through their numerous big sales supporting the publishers ability to take a chance on smaller or unknown writers.  Without the big name, big sellers, publishers would be even more selective and would rarely take chances.  In other words, big names are subsidising the rest of the industry.  As he points out from years of being in the publishing industry, the majority of writers sell 1 book in their life time.  Then come the B list writers who are proficient and crafty enough to sell just enough to keep the publishers interested in the next project.  The majority of writers never see more than their 6,000 to 25,000 advance because the books do not sell more than the amount.   

 Publishing as a whole is going through big changes over the next ten years.   I just read recently that Waldens is going to experiment with e-downloads right in the stores.  Offering discounts.  Reason, lagging sales.   But I am not sure the big boys at Waldens see the big picture in that their whole business plan is somewhat flawed and their prices higher in general than the other larger chains.   Maybe they need cappicino machines and donuts, or fruit tart with a lounge area and free wi-fi to help pull the customers in.

I think it is also Walden's that is the majority shareholder of lulu.com publishing, and the Walden CEO has made it very clear they will not be stocking POD's nationally just because they are produced by lulu.   So what does that say to a POD when your majority shareholder does not have faith in the writers passing through lulu?  

I even recently read Walmart, which was experimenting with music downloads at certain stores and was going to then go with book downloads, has abandoned this experiment because they could not generate enough interest from the music buying public.  Reason - convience.  They do not feel it is any more convient for consumers to purchase music, books or video downloads at the store than it is from home.   Even many public librarys are starting to experiment with e-downloads, but they are being very cautious of this approach because there are still too many unknowns about e-pulishing. 

Long and short of my long winded speech here.   The writers of today not only have to learn the craft of writing and what sells, they also have to learn how to do their own marketing.  For most authors, this is a gray area and one they want to avoid at all cost.  If we were salesmen, we would work in stocks, bonds, insurance or used car lots.  And some writers do... lol. 

Me, I would rather just write than all the traveling around to meet bookstore owners and such outside my area.   If my book falls into the 1 time wonder catagory, well then the public has spoken.  If I make it into the B list, well its like a part time job then.   I am under no illusions that I am going to give Tom Clancey a run for his money, his shares of the reading public.   But I want more than friends and family to find my work, to experience Netherron and if that means I have to market myself more doggidly, then so be it.

Ok...done...maybe over done.  

Nick. 

First Nick:

What burns my butt is that the A-list isn't necessarily even good writing -- on the contrary -- the longer an author's a best-seller, the more humdrum and hasty the writing gets (I'm talking the hugely popular guys, here, not the ones who're bestsellers at first release, because they're good, consistently, or the literary giants, but the ones who are brand names -- Patterson, Steel, etc.)

And if the huge profits of A-list sales or big movie tie-ins are supposed to fund publishing of interesting new fiction -- why isn't there more of the latter?

We genre folks are probably in a slightly different position than most going for first-time publication -- there's a steady market for the genre itself, and if a new author gets a foot in the door with the right publisher, and appeals to the audience, there's likely a good prospect of steady, if modest, sales, probably increasing as the books build a following (especially in the case of series.)

(I'll have something to say about the different kinds of bookstores, how they operate, what their markets are, and their influence, in another post, later.)

Now, Loekie:

I doubt I'll ever care to read ebooks, not as long as books printed on paper are still available.  I love my computer for writing, researching, and communicating, and I've been persuaded to use my cell-phone for convenience and safety, but I don't use either much for sheer entertainment.  I think we who are at least comfortable with technology forget how many people aren't.  And a lot of those people are readers.  When it comes to a book I want to take seriously, especially, I want a physical specimen that I can page through and scribble in the margins, etc.  I happen to be writing books I hope folks'll take seriously, so I'm expecting to be in print on pages before anything of mine will show up on Kindle.

When I started at B&N back in '98 they were already talking about in-store kiosks to download ebooks.  Ten years have passed, and it ain't happening.  The ebook and physical book trades are likely to remain somewhat separate -- ebooks online, physical books in stores and online. 

The Japanese are cool, and I'm not surprised they're in the forefront on all kinds of digital consumer media.  They're weird though, too -- vending machines for everything (including the used panties of teenage girls.)  Westerners may not be so quick to adopt everything that's hot in Japan. I know the future is electronic and digital -- but since I'm nearly 50 years old, the full flowering of the future will probably happen without me. (Thank God.)

Leah,

Now, now, we do not want to see that beautiful rear burned...   But as I writer and a reader, I agree with you about most A-listers are only there because of sale figures and not because of the writing.  

The problem as I see with the A-listers is not that the writers are not capable, but they write the way they do because its what the readers are buying.   Here's the problem...it readers are buying it then why change?   The old addage of if it ain't broke, don't fix it.   Just tonight I learned that 50% of fictional books sold in bookstores fall in the romance catagory.  So talk about genre and formula.   Those numbers surprised me as I did not think it that high.

Everyone is saying Fantasy is dead, Science Fiction is dead.  But you know what...no one has told the readers that bit of news and I have been hearing that for more than 20 years.    One reason I think Fantasy and other speculative fiction will continue to grow is because of tie ins to video games or movies.   That does not mean I approve, but like I said, it helps to support those of use trying to break into the industry.

Its the way business works anymore, a tie in from one product to another product because the parent corporation owns both products unlike days of pass.   Remember in early  movies, you never saw the brand name of a soda, beer, cigarette or other products.  Unless you count Acme.   Today, manufactors and other companys pay big dollars to have their products prominately displayed in movies and on TV.    Another form of revenue generating means.         

As a writer I may not like the fact that Dan Brown was so shamelessly promoted, but I do not hold that against Dan.   And the promotion did not hurt sales.   Then, neither did the movie or lawsuit that followed.   And here is the funny part, the lawsuite was the same company defending both parties.   Can we spell promotion?

Wow...I can't remember a thread in a while that has gotten this type of response.   Good thread, good comments and replies.   

I now return you to  our moderator and her lovely posterior.

Nick.   

DISCLAIMER:

To my knowledge Mr. Nicholas Anthony Lonigro has never seen my derriere.  He is indulging in pure speculation and gallantry. (But those who have seen it, if reports are accurate, would likely not dispute the speculation.)

Now, seriously:  it doesn't hurt the brand-name best-sellers one bit that their books are sold at a big discount when they come out, and the discount applies as long as they're on the bestseller list, and the sales stay higher longer because of the discount, ad infinitum. That's the current big-box business model.  But it's not the only reason the brand-names continue to earn well; it's true, many readers want the familiar.  They read to escape the ruts they have to live in, and they want the escape to be quick and easy. And they don't dare escape too far, I guess -- not far enough that they'd be tempted to look at their world differently.

I'm bucking that, I know.  But I also know that there are readers like me, who want to escape farther and actually prefer to work at it.  If you compare us to vacationers we're more likely to go backpacking in the wilderness than take a Caribbean cruise. In our case we want the escape to work a permanent change in our mental landscape, not just give us temporary relief from the daily grind, and we carry that change with us for the rest of our lives.

The books I remember are the ones that have changed me.  They're the ones that last.

Big publishing claims that sales of the cruises will pay the way for the backpacking adventures -- but I don't see that happening, not to the extent that it could.

ACME, eh, Nick.  You must be a fan of the Roadrunner!

I only raise my pumpkin head to say, why would any new author write a book that cannot stand on its own?

I read above of people who are doggedly writing books that they believe must be sold as a series.  I just want them to know that, while they are writing a series, they can with little trouble make sure that each volume is a story in itself, from page one to the finish, that does not require the reader to have read another volume as a prerequisite to enjoying the one they have in their hands.  SOUND ADVICE:  Fashion a complete-in-itself 100,000 words, before attempting to fashion a complete-in-itself half-million words.

Now, if you have already published volumes in a series and readers are waiting for more, that is a special case.  But for an unpublished writer, for heaven's sake, NEVER write anything that can't be your first published novel.

As for the book business, I read everything you all say about it, hoping to glean anything that will get my foot in the door.  Once it is in, they'll have to break it off to get me out.  But I, for one, am no salesman, so I guess I willl just have to write so well that they can't ignore me, to compensate for my lack of door-to-door personality.

Another day... another rejection.

This one in the form of an email addressed to five other people. How personal is that! Considering I only posted it on the 10th and it would have taken at least two days to get to them I don't think they gave it much consideration.Well at least they haven't wasted too much of my time. Their oversight is someone else's gain.

Now who's next on my list.

Gayna

Gayna, that's the spirit we should have until we have contacted every agent and publisher who might possibly have an interest in our work, or until our next novel is ready, whichever comes first.

Yes. It is surprising how quickly your skin toughens up in this business. I suppose if it didn't you'd crash and burn and never write again.

But it is disappointing. Oh well... one day.

Meanwhile I'm working on a stand alone book, just like you keep suggesting. Nearly finished the first draft, only ten + drafts to go. 

Gayna