The Wood Beyond The World Forum World Building: Technology

I suppose with the weather changing and become nice in some areas, members of the Wood are out and about. And life can impinge on discussions on our various threads. So once again, I will throw out a new thread to elicit some thought and discussion.

This thread is courtesy of a website I found ( that shows a discovered battery which is believed to be over 2000 years old. The hypothesis is that this may have be been used in electroplating, which existed back at that time.

One area that is fascinating me is exploring different aspects of technology in a world with magic. Could magic potentially stunt the growth of science and technology? Is there a reason to develop a trebuchet when you can rely on magic instead? Would explosives used in things like cannons be needed?

I know it comes down to how magic is used in your world. But even mental magic might affect the development of psychological sciences in your world. Potentially stunt the development of medicine.

So the new thread I throw out for this month is how do you see technology and magic meshing in your world. And in a world with magic in general?

Another excellent, highly pertinent topic.


Usually there are rules about magic in these subcreated worlds -- such as, you don't use it for every little thing. For example, on Pratchett's Discworld the main task of wizards is NOT to use magic, to keep too much of it from zipping around making trouble (and especially to keep reality from coming apart at the seams, lest the creatures of the Dungeon Dimensions get loose), while witches basically work with nature, persuading it to do things for them, and also have to keep an eye on supernatural incursions from elves and such (not the noble Tolkien elves, but the Fair Folk of Brit and Celtic tradition -- dangerously self-interested magical beings.) There's technology as we know it on the Disc -- movable type, semaphore, the mechanical inventions of Leonard of Quirm -- but much of the Disc's technology is magical -- actually imp-based -- imps very quickly painting pictures in a box called an iconograph, rather than photography -- imps memorizing data and repeating it in the personal planner called the Gooseberry. Pratchett's mix of technology and magic is one of the most original I've ever run across.


I really don't have magic per se in my world, but mind-powers. For superstitious people these might seem like magic -- they're spiritual powers in some of my cultures. But the Alliance nations officially regard them as natural powers governed by scientific principles. The ability to communicate mentally across distance, even seeing what's going on thousands of miles away, will prevent any development of electronic communications in my world, at least for a very very long time. The ability of minds to commune with one another very directly also has an effect on philosophy and religion, giving rise to Alidorism, a world-religion of tolerance and peace, the foundation of the Alliance. Of course there'll always be elements that want to use mind-powers for domination and destruction -- the source of the external conflicts in my stories.


The influence of Alidorism introduces ways of thinking that are more in line with Enlightenment or Victorian values too, though the general cultural atmosphere of my world is high middle ages/early Renaissance, typical to fantasy. Feudalism lingers in Vaaseli, and in some segments of Xanthian society, but Ravellan thinking is decidedly what we'd call modern.


I've also figured the rather advanced minds of my populations will result in certain areas of technology advancing quite quickly, depending on cultural needs and constraints. That's why Vaaselian craftsmen have come up with indoor plumbing and clockwork with it's various applications.


I think to effectively convey the relation of magic to technology we have to understand the natural development of tech in our world, what the natural influences on it are, the steps by which it's evolved, and then decide how the fantastic elements we introduce in our subcreation will influence that development.


The practical, everyday uses of magic was the area I thought Rowling really excelled in conveying in the Potter books -- owl mail, flue powder, portkeys, etc. When I got annoyed with her less-than-controlled plotting and clumsy writing I consoled myself with her sheer powers of invention -- social conditions in the wizarding community were pretty interesting too, though not as well thought out.


Thanks for lending me the soap-box, Loekie.

Ah, my dear Leah, I am always ready to offer my soap box. Nick, well that is another matter.

I know your focus in mind powers, not magic per say. Yet how far does these powers go? Can it affect healing someone, especially someone who is mentally ill? Or is is possible to use these powers to physically affect a tumour or blood clot? What of telekinesis?

The use of mental powers could affect the development of technology within aspects like medical advances. The use of telekinesis could affect the development of war weapons. Why develop a better trebuchet or gun powder when I have a guy here that can fling things with his mind power? Why develop a better forceps if I have someone here that can work inside the patient instead of cutting him/her/it.

Since I have been remiss in reading your stuff, I don't know how far the mental powers go in your world but they could have an impact on technological development. Let alone the sciences.

Well, thanks for asking.

 

A lot of the plot development has to do with the scientific-minded Alliance diplomats and mages coming to grips with the more extreme uses of mind-powers -- for healing both mental and physical, and for external telekinetic purposes.

 

Telekinesis is the first manifestation of mind powers in an individual, used by babies before they can get around on their own, but not encouraged in "civilized" societies -- largely because of its destructive potential.  Very major point in my stories.

 

More "primitive" cultures also understand the uses of mind powers for healing that advanced societies have forgotten.

 

The major conflict in all my stories comes from the tensions between different perspectives on mind-work and its right uses.

Not much technology in Tandara, other than the basics like the wheel, etc.  Magic is a natural force in Tandara and most people have some "talent" even if it's only a little.  Very few people, however, are adepts. There are also national proclivities.  The Tans, for instance, have green thumbs, the Valderians are gifted wine-makes, the Esmallans weave beautiful cloth with magical properties.  Those without magical ability to speak of, even of the ordinary garden variety, are called drudges or drabs.

My main character, coming from Earth, has some adapting to do in this very different world. She has powers of her own, but nearly blows herself up before she accepts that she needs tutoring in the basics of magic. (An adept taps into the source, the natural energy all around him/her, to perform magic.)

There are limits.  Maintaining a different shape for long periods of time expends a great deal of energy and is exhausting.  Only the adepts can acheive it with any degree of success.  Also, large feats of magic create a vibration that can be sensed by other wizards, like someone plucking on a gigantic guitar string, thus alerting them to your presence.  Not something you want to do if the bad wizard is anywhere around. Talents vary from wizard to wizard.  Some are good at controlling the weather, or animating objects, others at controlling people's emotions, particularly fear.  Raine, my main character, is a necromancer.  She "sees dead people," which is an unusual talent, even in Tandara.

Jeanie

Me, I like the way Leah balances her mind powers with technology.   The way she does it takes the reader away from the typical fantasy fiction and brings her world closer to real life, I think.   The powers her characters develope as they go along are very complex, yet not overly so to bore the reader.

 

But for me, I am a traditional fantasy freak.   Meaning, I like my fantasy to subscribe to certain formula's and unspoken rules.   But that does not mean I can not get away from the D&D formulas of the 80's and 90's.

 

Since Netherron is a seeded world, the so called gods have kept modern technology to a minimum.   No self propelled weapons, explosives, etc.  The power of magic on Netherron is a mix of Netherron's special properties combined with the mental abilities of those who draw on this power.  Those without the power call it Earth Magic, but those who understand the power refer to it as the Earth Knowledge.  Again, its all about perception of what is really magic.   This too is part of the story as Nathin learns there is more to the Earth Knowledge than just calling upon it.  There are limits.

 

Nick.

 

PS...I got the movie Beuwolf and Grendal and watched it tonight while my new computer was uploading the latest links and updates.  Thank you Loekie for pointing me towards it.  It was worth the watch. 

Jeanie Quote:


Then Nick Quote:


For me, this takes away from the realism of a world. And Nick, subscribing to certain formula's and unspoken rules? Sigh, I thought you were are rebel. :-)

From what I read, neither one of you have a world where everyone uses magic. So there will be those that looked about them and wonder, invent, tinker. If you have societies more than 50 years old, I believe there has to be some sort of advancement going on else your world becomes stagnant.

Someone is going to think of building a better quill. Someone is going to think on how to better keep silver on a metallic surface. Someone is going to look a birds and want to create a flying machine.

At the same time, sad to say, throughout out history, warfare has driven technology. Unless your warfare is completely driven by the use of magic, then I have an issue with no advances of technology.

That is what I don't like about those "certain formulas and unspoken rules". It might work for a novel in a small land. But if you are tackling a series where you are showing a larger world, a world that has some years of existence, for me, you cannot ignore technology. Advances in different areas have to occur, in my opinion else the world comes off as just made up and one-dimensional. And becomes no different than all those other fantasy worlds lining the book shelves.

Stepping off my soap box now....

I guess a more accurate statement would be that there's not much mention of technology in my world YET, at least not in book one.  But there are societies that use machines to do their work, particularly in terms of smelting and the large wine presses, ship building, sail making, etc, I just haven't written about them yet.  When I get there, Loekie, I'd like your input  And as far as war is concerned, yes, I plan on utilizing machines of war, but the war is in book four, and I'm just finishing up book two.  It's something I've thought about, but not in any great depth because I'm not there yet.  (Okay, now my dirty little secret is out.  I'm a pantser, not a plotter.)  Right now, my heroine has her hands full adjusting to being in a different world and body, running from the bad guy, escaping various monsters, and learning about her new-found powers.  In the first book, she is also in the company of two wizards who, being adepts, rely mostly on their magic and two warriors who rely on their swords.  So, not much of an opportunity in the first book to explore technology in Tandara. 

I think the contrast between machines and magic will be interesting.  One of my wizards is a clockmaker, so he is interested in "drab" matters, much like Mr. Weasley was fascinated with muggles in Harry Potter.  And since not everyone in my world has magical talent, you're right, there are bound to be inventors.  I will certainly keep that in mind as I write!

Jeanie

It�s a bit difficult and long-winded to explain how technology has an effect on my world, mainly because it is in the background somewhat but on the back of your last post, Loekie (which is a good point) I will try and explain how and why only one type of people work within technology.

The enormous country of Hannaw is almost an island with one small border that connects it to one other country. The city of Torak sits at the far end opposite the connecting country and the rest of the land in-between is divided into wards used for farming. The farming people (serfs) are simpletons who are forbidden to have any contact outside their own ward (unless being sold to another ward for marriage) and are the responsibilty of the owner of that ward (a Lord or magien). They basically work to feed/maintain the country and generally have no time, interest or strength to dabble with creating things that may aid their chores and would be punished if they did. In any case, if they did start looking into technology they most likely would not have much tools.

Around the outside of Torak city wall, the beggars, although poorer and considered below serfs at the very VERY bottom of the chain, are more free to create things as they wish, but again can only use materials that are available to them or what they can buy or trade from those entering or leaving the city. As no one is allowed to leave, the ward owners are the only frequent opportunity and they would not trade or sell good materials to beggars because of obvious reasons. Even so, the beggars do what they have to do to get by and have invented crude but useful objects.

In Torak itself the people are quite vain, hardly caring what goes on outside of the city and more concerned with living a lifestyle that focuses on greed, wealth, power and hierarchy. Although they work long days in their jobs, they�re left a small amount after they�ve paid tax and the rest of their earnings are spent trying to make them look wealthier than they are � jewellery, clothing, grooming, food, being seen at the right place, purchasing seats at tables with the right people and so on. They feel the magiens will look after them, so they just live. This attitude is encouraged.

The Upper Arc, the magien-only part of the city, houses the five sects. Of the five there is one that is solely concerned with the developments of new technologies and sciences, but more specifically how the Gift (magical energy present in all magiens) affects natural and non-natural materials (the Alkima sect). Already they have made progress and discoveries, with the city having metallic sky-high buildings and creating factories for clothing merchants in order to increase the amount of stock that can be made and so on. This sect is also responsible for spying on other countries and ensuring they stay poor in comparison.

When Nemma goes into Torak and the Upper Arc, there are other small things she will see that are in existence that are designed to improve the lives of the citizens, such as magical platforms (magical buses that take people from one place to another) and an automatic tax collector.

Hannaw is the most technically developed country, in my world and that is because it�s inhabitants use magic to enhance materials. As Hannaw is the only country that magiens are allowed to live in, other counties may invent things but it won�t be to the scale of the developments of the Alkima sect and if they develop too far the Priests of that sect will destroy it.

With regards to war, the other countries have developed loads of their own versions of weaponry but this does not worry the Alchemist Priests because inhabitants of other countries do not enter Hannaw (long story) and as far as they are concerned, only the Gift can fight the Gift. So they are happy to sit back and let them kill each other.

How much of this comes over in my story, I don�t know. I just use this knowledge to write the story to the fullest experiences of the characters. However if anyone can see any flaws or have any suggestions please enlighten me so that I can improve/correct it.

I might think too much about some things but one thing that annoyed me about Harry Potter was the magic. The magicians were capable of doing wonderful medicine but refused to share it with the muggle world. Nasty selfish magicians.

Imagine if you could mend broken bones in hours instead of weeks. Think of the suffering that would save. and that is one of the minor medical procedures they seemed capable of fixing.

The possibility for crime also amazed me. Voldemort has the possiblity of taking over the entire world if he wanted so why was he worrying about such small fry.

This shows there needs to be limitations on magic. Did magic medicine not work on muggles? If so tell me so. Was the White House, crown jewels etc protected from magic? If so tell me so.

Just a thought

Gayna

Gayna, you bring up a good point. I never saw the Harry Potter series that way and I think this deserves it's own thread. Here we go... hee-hee. (Yeah, I am being mercenary, I don't want this thread to devolve too quickly).

Within the world of the Skare, there are several different factors. The Cycle, a constant directive created during the first Concert (this is part of my newer myth) directs the actions of the godlike Apsects of Time and Space. Remember I work heavily on the metaphysical.

When the Skare was ruled by the Quan'Fae, there was a large amount of technology. Remember, Runes can be used for almost anything. Write and create a robot to serve, or a skiff that floats and delivers you around where you wish. As long as a Sage or programmer if you will could get the sequence correct they could make it. Now, after the split of the World between the two main political factions of the Children's War everything has devolved. The world no longer has its unified language (Quan'Sha) nor does it have it's unified system of governmental rulership.

I still don't have a name for the old Institutions of the Fae, but I'm looking at it kind of representing if you will the Roman Empire and before them Alexandrian Empire. A time in which a unified Culture and forms fo technology and ideasl rule. However, because of the death of the Ruling Line, the culture split into four factions. Those supporting the Daughter of the former RUler, and the Son. Each faction itself had a military and political wing. These factions and their wings evolved into today's races.

The War that the fought is known as the Children's War and has yet to end. It's more of a cold war concept. The highest form of technology you usually find will be in the Imperial City of the Empire and the fortresses of the Rune Knighthood.