if you make your name "contents" you technically get free advertising

just hear me out

Okay so I have just realized that on your profile there is a link that says "join contests" and when you click it brings you to "https://www.writerscafe.org/contents," however I think this is a shut down section of the website because when you go there it says "we couldn't find this account" which must mean that it would consider that link to be a profile if someone had their name be "contents"

Therefore I bring the proposition that if someone had named their account "contents" and they would get free advertising to new members of this website who click that old forgotten link.

Just something to consider for a really desperate writer out there.

Author's Note

come on guys it would be cool

Reviews

[JayG]

The site is no longer moderated. We used to have forums, too, but with no modertation the trolls took over, so it was dumped, along with the contests.

[Jargyn]

Ah yeah makes sense. But I think that because the contests page was shut down and no longer brings you to the contests that the website interprets it as a profile, so maybe just maybe you could make your name "contests" and then whenever someone clicks that link it will bring the website to your profile page. It's just a funny thought and who knows might work.

But yeah I'm new if it wasn't already obvious, wish I had found this website earlier it's wonderful, glad to be able to talk to an oldie of this site.

[JayG]

But who would judge them? The tricks of the working fiction-writer are necessary, but they're not taught as part of our school-day education. Like every other profession, the necessary skills are acquired in addition to those we're given in school. And the very last person you want advising you on how to write like a pro is someone who can't sell their own work.

And winning a contest that's judged by people who say, "He makes the same mistakes I do...cool," isn't all that much to brag about.

When you get sincerely offered but misunderstood advice, do you have a way to tell if it's accurate, or simply "This is what I do?"

We're all "experts" here. But as Holly Lisle said, “Michelangelo did not have a college degree, nor did Leonardo da Vinci. Thomas Edison didn't. Neither did Mark Twain (though he was granted honorary degrees in later life.) All of these people were professionals. None of them were experts. Get your education from professionals, and always avoid experts.”

[Jargyn]

Eh? I think you're misunderstanding. I'm just saying that since the contests page is shut down the link "writerscafe.org/contents" is now viewed as an account, so one could theoretically rename their account to "contents" and clicking that old link would bring you to their page. I'm not saying anything about reopening the page or something.

Also on a side note I disagree with what you said about "professionals" vs "experts." What does it mean to be a professional? In most cases in life, being a professional means that you passed a bureaucratic, unstable and possibly corrupt system. Perhaps you are more likely to find someone of value with the title "Professional," but to only accept education and advice from someone who's knowledge has been filtered through a system is silly and if something got screwed up in that system then you're screwed. Even then you would only be listening to a clump of people who have only come from one sort of perspective on the topic and, in cases like science, possibly even given misleading information by the system.
Also if someone gives advice to someones writing it's not a matter of whether it is "accurate," it's a matter of if it works. I think the writer would be able to judge for themselves whether the advice felt "accurate" or not, because critiquing is more about helping someone see flaws than it is telling them flaws. If a writer used this "inaccurate" advice and liked the result then it's a win- that was the goal after all, for the writer to polish their art to something they find satisfactory.

but that was more a side rant on the topic you brought up, not really a defense because I think you misunderstood my comment. I appreciate your replies :-)

[JayG]

• I disagree with what you said about "professionals" vs "experts."

One thing I've learned over the years: How deeply we believe something has nothing to do with it being an accurate belief.

• What does it mean to be a professional?

It means you demonstrate that what you recommend works well enough to generate income.

• In most cases in life, being a professional means that you passed a bureaucratic, unstable and possibly corrupt system.

Nonsense. Professional doctors cure you. Professional engineers design equipment that works. Professional pilots don't crash. The list is endless. And professional writers create fiction that people will pay to read.

• I think the writer would be able to judge for themselves whether the advice felt "accurate" or not, because critiquing is more about helping someone see flaws than it is telling them flaws.

Judge it how? Because it sounds reasonable? Lots of bad advice sounds reasonable. Think about it. The last one you want telling you how to write fiction well is someone who can't sell their work. This, and the other online sites are filled with nice well-meaning people who have not a clue of how to write fiction because they're still using the skills of high school, and no one ever told them why it can't be used for fiction.

Publishers and agents call fully 75% of what's sent them "unreadable." (their term, not mine. And of the rest, only 3 are seen as being written on a professional level. That's not because of a lack of telent, or because publishers are "making up rules." It's because pretty close to 90% of hopeful writers have not a clue. And I say that as someone who owned a manuscript critiquing company. I've talked to lots of editors and agents, And, I've read a lot of really lousy manuscripts.

Colleges offer four year majors in Commercial Fiction writing. And in our school days we're given only the writing skills of nonfiction, because they're what employers need us to know. So it matters not at all what you or I believe. Unless you take the time to learn HOW to write fiction you'll be using nonfiction writing techniques for fiction. And that can't work.

• If a writer used this "inaccurate" advice and liked the result then it's a win-

Naaa...We ALWAYS like our own writing. But when you read your work you cheat. You begin reading already knowing the character, their mood and objective, and what's going to happen. So you have something the reader lacks, context. You can hear your own voice when you read, all filled with necessary emotion. The reader can't. And nonfiction writing techniques are outside-in skills. They talk to the reader in overview and summation, just like a report or history book. And who reads them for fun?

Have your computer read your work to you to hear how different what the reader gets is from what you hear as you read. better yet, have a friend with no acting ability (the typical reader) read a page of so of your work to you. Don't tell them it's your work, and don't tell them what it's about. Just let them do a cold read. Just be out of their line of sight, so they can't see you crying.🤣

Over the years since I began writing, I've heard the view you expressed lots of times. But in about 40 years, not one of those who expressed it has been offered a contract for their work from a publisher.

No one says you have to learn the tricks the pros take for granted—except publishers, of course.

[Jargyn]

"It means you demonstrate that what you recommend works well enough to generate income."ah okay that is fair, for some reason I had the impression your use of professional was specific to having a degree of some sort. Which, doesn't really make sense because "professional" is about having a "profession"... so yeah my bad there.

but I agree with a lot with what you said, however it does depend a lot on the author's goal. You imply the goal is to make something that will get accepted by publishers and be bought by consumers, but obviously that would be a silly thing to base quality writing off of. Yes, if something is accepted by a publisher obviously it is probably going to be of more quality than a fanfiction published on wattpad, but that doesn't mean "selling books" be the objective goal. If someone has sold many books that doesn't necessarily prove them to have advice of value, they could have made it to that spot with ill-willed mindset or lack a understanding of a certain idea or topic that is necessary to understand the work they are reviewing. You can be rejected by publishers, and have sold few books but still bring something of value to someone's writing, in fact you might be more likely to bring something different of value because you are entering with a different mindset.

And just to clarify I have nothing against someone who works professionally obviously, I just am just trying to show the nuance in this and that when it comes to professionals, in any form, we still be critical.

[JayG]

• You imply the goal is to make something that will get accepted by publishers and be bought by consumers, but obviously that would be a silly thing to base quality writing off of.

The thing to remember is that when we read fiction we don't know where the author decided to do A instead of B. We see only the result if using the skills of the profession, not the tools. And having seen that since we first began to read, we expect it in what we read. Problem is, our reader expects it in our work—which is the single best argument I know of for acquiring the "tricks of the trade." It's not all that hard to do, and a lot of it is the kind of thing that you say, "Damn, that's so obvious, how could I have missed it, myself‚ though perfecting those skills is tougher, because your existing writing habits will howl with outrage when you try to do what they see as absolutely wrong.

No one says you have to change anything, and I'm not trying to discourage you. But since you do want people to enjoy what you write, it might make sense to read two chapters of this book. It's the best I've found, to date, at imparting and clarifying the "nuts-and-bolts" issues of creating a scene that will sing to the reader. The address of an archive site where you can read or download it free is just below. Copy/paste the address into the URL window of any Internet page and hit Return to get there.

https://archive.org/details/TechniquesOfTheSellingWriterCUsersvenkatmGoogleDrive4FilmMakingBsc_ChennaiFilmSchoolPractice_Others

And if it makes no sense stop there. But if it does...

For poetry, the excerpt from Stephen Fry's, The Ode Less Traveled, while it deals in structured poetry, should be required reading for all writers, for what he has to say about the flow of language.

And of course The Shmoop site has lots of great poems analyzed to show how and why they works so well.

As I see it, if you're going to spend time writing, and having the necessary skills make it more fun to do...

[Jargyn]

"No one says you have to change anything, and I'm not trying to discourage you." No I understand that! We're on the same page here, I also am talking about advice that is there to best improve your work. Because yes, I 100% agree that learning technical and professional skills for writing is an amazing set of knowledge to have in the shed, I was just trying to equally defend the value of advice that is not from that world, that it still can have value in it's own unique way. That "professional" advice and "expert" advice both have just as much to bring to the table for making a piece of writing people can enjoy and gain from. A "professional" is going to be more educated in structure and the elements of how to write while an "expert" is going to be able to provide insight to ideas and metaphors, artistic additions, things that a professional could miss not because he is a professional but just him as a person may not be as keen to as whatever person that specific expert was. A professional can miss things an expert can hit, that is all.

Also thank you for the link! Hail archive.org, I will definitely start reading this just for the sake of it. I appreciate that in your reviews you leave people links to books, it sets people off to do research they probably would never have found the motivation to do otherwise... just as I will be doing now.