Geek squad(?) Forum Friday Forum

May all your geeky conversations be blessed,

-- Geeksquad(?)

Thank you guys for responding. Stirring up a discussion is certainly what I hoped for.

Wittgenstein spent much of his enormous restless energy trying to define the boundary between what is knowable and what is not. As things go with this sort of endeavor, he didn't really find solutions, but he did show how difficult of a problem this actually is. My point is that even in this physical world, its very hard to know things, to distill features that span beyond my own experience, and that we all experience as truth. I define this as a key quality of truth, the essence that gives it its meaning, and so, I've tried to maintain only those set of beliefs which can be derived from truths. In part because when I can successfully share them, they are intrinsically meaningful. This is why I stressed the connection between knowing and believing (I never tried to make the assertion that because we don't know we can't know).

Naturally, this restricts beliefs, perhaps too much. But we must understand that we are far, far more prone to error than to truth(which is why we can't rely on ourselves alone). Truth exists outside of us, and we must learn how to see it, how to distill it, and how to share it. So I would challenge you, if there is truth to a notion of an after life, than distill it in such a way so that it can be shared. In a way that others can also find to be true. Yes love can't be measured directly with a detector (not yet anyways), but it is sufficiently universal where we can all confer on its meaning. Love exists between people when its meaning is communicated and they have learned to see it. 

With regards to my particular view, it seems that much of dying is accomplished by forgetting. I like the symmetry of this in that it didn't seem to take much to get me here, and it doesn't seem like it takes much to lift me away. Factually, its all kind of evanescent.

Well, it is Friday, so may I say I like very much the last word in Ronaldo's thesis: 'evanescent'. That is very much what life is, for all life is fragile, subject to dying. The consciousness I experienced outside and existing apart from my body simply exists: it has always existed. This is not a belief, but a reality I cannot explain, because it transcends anything we know of the physical universe. Trusting our senses is as futile as when people believed the sun circled the earth, which only a madman would refute as our eyes clearly see the 'truth' daily. Likewise, quantum physics has intimated that much of classical physics is illusion, and that the Universe is far weirder than we thought.

But Ronaldo, there's a reason why I can't 'prove' the reality of my soul-- or yours-- because reality as you speak of it does not exist. What does exist are 7 billion 'realities' of the only known (so far) sentient species. You've heard about the quantum cat in the box: is he dead or alive? Well, it seems to depend on who opens the box, i.e., the experimenter: the theory being that we--each one of us--actually create the universe by our observing it. You're right when you speak about beliefs having no foundation as it were; but knowledge too may be far more 'fluid' than we know-- but not that we can imagine. And as in a dream, perhaps our imagination makes it 'real'

I don't mean this in any rude or degrading way Nolo but such a subjective view on reality is rather privileged. Saying all reality depends on the one experiencing the reality, destroys the dignity of the cat. If the cat is dead, we can deny it all we want but the cat can't. Excepting the reality of others pain and suffering is not easy or comfortable, but if a child in Africa is suffering from hunger, or a girl in America is being trafficked their pain is real. If a friend tells me they are sad, I can see them as a happy person and wallow in ignorance, but they are sad and my inability to see that does not change that fact. We strip away the dignity of others when we deny the reality of pain and suffering.  

As Ronaldo said so well, “Truth exists outside of us, and we must learn how to see it, how to distill it, and how to share it”. 

I appreciate the feedback, HL-- and you're not being rude. I wasn't denying the reality of others (including cats!) when I referenced a classic quantum physics 'thought experiment', but when we talk about 'ultimate reality', e.g., is God real, do you have an immortal soul, is there a law of Karma, then we can only reference it from our own individual framework. That is what I meant-- and of course, you and Ronaldo are right, there must be an absolute, universal 'reality'. The problem is, can we in our limited lifetimes with our limited intellects--and that would include a mind on the order of an Einstein-- and perhaps most of all with our limited experience ever fully GRASP the essence of that ultimate, universal, eternal reality? 

I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression-- because I wonder about the metaphysical world does not mean I do not care about this physical world of love and sorrow. Last week my nephew's wife died of brain cancer at 36, leaving 2 small children behind. And to see what I mean on a larger scale, please see my poem,The Face of the Buddha, which relates impressions I had of Cambodia while teaching there before the Killing Fields began in the late '70's.

I appreciate the clarification Nolo! I am sorry to hear about your nephew's wife. You said you were teaching in Cambodia. Why were you teaching there?

I would agree that comprehending the vast reality of the universe IS a major feat that as limited humans we could never grasp. Even to grasp basics, like how such a reality applies directly to us would be incomprehensible without help. 

Would you agree that the goal for most of the world's religions is(for lack of better wording) to climb a mountain to God(with the acceptance of protestant Christianity)? Are you suggesting that this too is unachievable or simply understanding which religion is right is incomprehensible?  

Going back to the main question: The reason why I ask this is to pin-point your own opinion on life after death. 

You raise some good questions, HL. Firstly, I went to Cambodia in '73 when I was offered a job teaching English there in Phnom-Penh. I guess I was young and dumb-- I knew a war was going on there but something-- adventure???-- drove me to go there. Looking back after almost 50 years it seems like another person did it-- and if you live long enough, it will almost seem like you were different people-- re-incarnated in a single lifetime!

Re religion: it is hubris and delusion to think there is only one 'right' religion. Because of the innate disparity between God and us, we can talk to God thru prayer far easier than He/She can talk to us, and in that sense religions are like languages--one language is not right and all the others are wrong. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism (Karma), all have as THE imperative a version of the Golden Rule: do unto others...and if we humans could follow that one simple rule the world would be near heaven: no crime, no war, no poverty. But we can't because there is something 'broken' in human nature, and in my own life, I have only become 'better', healthier, happier, more whole, when I've turned to that Higher Power that has myriad names. In the end I suspect it all comes down to one word-- LOVE, not the kind on greeting cards but a force, an immense and powerful force that overcomes even death itself, a Force that rules this world and ALL THE WORLDS.

In re-reading your response, H.L., I see I never really answered your last question-- is there life after death? If you define life beyond the confines of organic biology as a 'consciousness' that exists prior to birth and survives death, then yes-- I learned the reality of my soul when I had a near death experience while drowning. It appears the soul always exists, without beginning or end-- much as we seem to in this life in the sense none of us can remember being born: it's like we've always been in the world.

I suspect there are certain times--and they are rare-- that God or Karma or call it what you will gives some of us certain 'insights', what used to be called revelations. I personally see them as great gifts, for I know now we all exist forever, and I also believe as my mother said to me on her deathbed, 'love never goes away'-- which means we never really loose anyone we care about.