The Review Club Forum Discussion on Jeff's (Bullgoos..

This is a place to respond to reviews and for further comments for Jeff's (Bullgooseloon) story Death Fantasy #17

Please send cashier's check or money order (no personal checks, please) to "Crazy Clown Sex", P.O. Box 39, Columbus, OH. O s**t ... wrong site. Sorry about that. Ummmm, enjoy the story?

I enjoyed it a lot! Do you have an specific questions that you would like feed back on?

Hi, Kim, I'm assuming it was you that left the review? If so, thank you. I've been worried my pieces have been getting too full of themselves and too somber, but my attempts to add humor usually come off as forced, so it's a great compliment to hear I made you laugh out loud. There is no sweeter sound. (Also, thanks so much for the grammar check - I rushed immediately and changed them in case anyone calls you crazy. They were there, I swear. I've been having a ton of trouble with homonyms, lately. Funny to forget what one knows, or thinks he knows, at least.)

My big question: is there any place I lose you? I do write very internally, and it's easy for me to skip ahead in plot movement without noticing, as our brains naturally do when we process things. We know what we're talking about to ourselves - mostly - and sometimes that's hard to describe - like the joke that falls flat because you told the punchline before the setup was complete.

Yes, the guest is me. I don't know why it keeps booting me when I hit submit when I do a review.

I didn't get lost in the storyline at all. I think the closest is when the bus pulled up and he absentlymindedly was playing out his fantasy with his arms sprawled out. It took me a second realize the reason the bus driver and the passenger snickered at him. But, I did get it and that what's important.

Oh and I didn't think the humor was forced at all. I loved it.

Thanks. I understand what you mean about the bus pulling up and wonder if there's a softer way to bring him back on the lawn. It's a delicate line, wanting to make clear he's imagining the accident and wanting the reader to see how clearly he is involved in the fantasy. Maybe I shouldn't try to be so cute and just state clearly that he comes back out of the daymare/daydream, or whatever it is?

Something like, "The fantasy's broken by the sound of the bus pulling up ..."?

Julie:

I'm so pleased to hear people are laughing at this piece. It is a great motivation to continue.

I, too, wonder about that transition between his fantasy and the reality of the bus showing up, and think, as I said to Kim, that I was trying to be a little too cute, there. I don't see a problem in being honest, as soon as possible, with why he's standing there, and that'll be the first part I tackle in a rewrite.

Yes, you're right to assume Jeffrey (hmmmm...) is a bit manic. Whether or not his perception can be trusted, I'm not sure, as I'm a little ... too close to see the broader picture, in that respect. That is a valid point and I'd love to start a debate about it - maybe in CC's question area - but am I wrong to assume that most 1st person POV's shouldn't be completely trusted? A fun discussion, really.

I was very worried his views about the sign in the beginning would grow old, quickly, with most readers. I actually cut quite a bit out of that section. But, I also, like you, felt I should've tied it in, more, at the end. I guess once I cut out the extraneous parts, I felt it might be too heavy-handed to bring up at the very end. I'll definitely think it over and would love suggestions. I can see an almost throwaway line about signs in that last paragraph - think I cut one - but I will probably stick with the tit comment as the final sentence.

I do go to the repetition bag a lot - I think it applies to how most people actually think and when done well, I think it can be poweful and illuminating. But, but, it is a fine line, I'm finding, and maybe I over did it. I repeated "funny" to show the protaganist almost qualifying his every thought, as if the thought or situation is deemed healthy or "normal" if he can find humor in it. Maybe I should've explained more.

Thanks for your wonderful compliments, Julie, I'll never pretend I don't enjoy them. And to prove to you that I am a ten-year-old, I'd like to point out that I used the phrase "think I cut one" in this reply.

Mykietown:

Thanks for your thoughts. I particularly appreciate you thinking the collision was effective. That is, obviously, an important and delicate moment for me, and to hear it worked for you is a relief.

Yes, this will be the same protaganist throughout the collection. I think your point is a strong one and something I'll have to remember. I'll probably try to write each one as a seperate piece, and maybe, as I see them as a whole, try to fill in missing info, later. You are right, though, this style does make it difficult to describe the narrator without being too forced. My hope is, as you've said, the entire set of fantasies will give the main character a great deal of depth, and then to end the book with a "novella" - oo lala - that takes him through some sort of adventure/non-adventure that might be more enjoyable knowing what you know about him.

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I didn't think the his observation about the sign was getting old. Actually, I thought it revealed something about his line of reasoning and character. If anything, I thought it was going to expand into something about the way he questions societal conventions, as if he would park in a handicapped space, or use the woman's restroom.

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Gotta love a line like that. Thanks for letting me into your thought process. I think it is almost vital for you to add another sign reference. And as far as the POV trust, I agree it is an interesting debate... In some ways, I love the fact I can't trust Jeffrey. I want that, and enjoy the tension...

With your explanation I withdraw my funny comment. Repetition has advantages, so it really does work. I look forward to hearing the new sign line.

That could work. For sure.

Wow, Julie, almost vital. I'm excited anyone feels anything is almost vital in respect to my work. I will add it, thanks, and I think I might take advantage of your story contests and enter this one, after a few rewrites.

Cameron,

Let me first say that the fast food bit is my least favorite part of the story. It is a moment of fill - he's removing himself from the situation mentally to act aloof - and, yes, it is supposed to add to the character development. I'm not happy with how it came out - definitely too silly. In the rewrite, it will be changed ... but, most likely with what I consider to be a better interlude. I'm sure I'm not admitting anything too outlandish to point out the entire plot of this story exists within maybe twenty feet: from the stop itself to the back of the bus.

I'm not saying I don't take your critique to heart, because I do worry about that balance you bring up. So many stories I write in this style fall flat because they are, as you say, too much. Can't argue that. But I would argue the thrust of this story, of the collection of stories I hope to build around it, is character development. I think my motivation to write is character driven.

I'm often jealous of plot-driven storytellers. It seems like a much more fun, much more stress-free way to create. But, and I say this with all modesty and with all respect to you, Cameron, there is certainly a glut of them. Check out most new American movies. Check out any Dan Brown book. These characters are merely vehicles for a fast-paced action scene or to fall after being kicked in the balls. So, certainly, I've had to come to terms with the much smaller audience I play to. Maybe I read too much older stuff. Larry McMurtry comes to mind. You could write the entire plot of "Lonesome Dove" in two paragraphs. It's those amazing characters that make the story so full. (and I want to make it clear, in no way am I comparing myself to Mcmurty or this story to "... Dove".)

Just stirring up a fun debate, really. Would love to hear your thoughts. O, and thanks for mentioning you are a "pretty straight guy". I agree!

I didn't have any real problems with the plot itself. I'm not sure if I said that in my review, but as it was the story has a beggining (he gets to the stop) middle (checking out the girl/waiting for the bus) end (fantasizing about getting hit by the bus/getting onto the bus). And I'm torn on the debate about whether the character should serve the plot or the plot should serve the character.

And really I have to agree that my characters tend to come first as well, and one of the reasons I bring up plot/pacing so often is that I have a real hard time with it. Yet on the other hand a story without a plot is like having chocolate chip cookies without the chocolate chips. All the essentials are there, but it doesn't taste right.

Also the reason I brought up the digressions is that they take away from the tension of the story (which is low tension as it is). The sign references are neccessary because they're what you're going for. But in a story like this where so much of the action of the story is internal, you do need to consider what is pulling the reader through this story.

As to the plot driven/character driven story debate. I say pshaw. I don't think either is necessarily easier or simpler to write a plot driven story. Also you can have both, take Dennis Lehane's Patrick Kenzie and Angela Gennaro stuff. It's very plot driven, but I dare you to say the characters don't play an important part in the story. Anyways take what you will and leave the rest. :)

Yea, I see your points, Cameron, and I went over and checked your story out and think you did a marvelous job balancing the two. I do have tremendous issues with pacing because of those tangents and you are exactly right, this is a pretty low tension piece, as far as conflict goes, and big digressions can only hurt. I wonder if I could get away with cutting that section and smoothing over him acting aloof to him imagining getting struck by the car? Might try it both ways and see how I feel.

And, dead on again, Cameron, we all do instintively take what we want from a review and leave the rest. What's that great Paul Simon line? "A man hear's what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." Guess that's why we're here. To learn to judge what is and isn't appropriate to helping us work towards whatever end we wish for our stuff. I didn't want you to think I found no merit in your review, exactly the opposite - very important for me to read the critiques of someone who may not be my core audience, especially when they have the constructive insight yours did. Maybe it just took me a day to appreciate it more.

AIght buddy your review is up next but it won't be till tomorrow. I think one a day is about all I'm good for lol.

I understand, Anthony. I packed in three, yesterday, and thought my eyes wouldn't uncross. Of course, I'm glad about this, but I do feel a great deal more pressure to make my reviews comprehensive, here.

Hi Wheldon,

Thanks for the great review. I'm just gonna talk about the fantastic points you bring up.

I do want the reader to wonder if this is happening in his mind or in reality, a little. My hope is to present a protaganist who lives almost entirely in his head, and as he's maybe unsure which is which, at times, his narration should show this conflict. I do understand it can be difficult to follow and maybe you and Cameron are right, a stronger hand should be taken, here. I'm also hoping a collection of stories like this might make it clearer? You could, perhaps, fall into his rhythm easier?

the bold, white "STOP" - You key in on something I was afraid of. I initially had more, here, but cut it down because I felt it could become as if he's preaching. Other reviewers want more in this section, though. I think some word choices could strike a good compromise. Certainly, he is so involved with himself, he feels what the sign represents is how it should be represented to everyone.

Revelry is a poor word choice, here. I'm just saying the sight of her breaks his silly sign conversation.

"You check out ...." - A joke about bad small talk that might've fell short. You're right to assume this is what you'd say to a guy, he's worried his attempt to sound normal in his state of mind might make something inane come out of his mouth. I could add more guidance, here, too.

The James Dean reference could easily go.

The stop business will most likely be gone in the rewrite, perhaps with a better explanation of his thoughts from the beginning.

"Portent Pontification". I see your point, and this whole section could really be tightened up.

Time turns syrupy. I kinda' lack that - didn't want to say somthing cliche like "time stands still" or other.

Thanks, though. Definitely some workable points to think over.

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Personally, I think you worked this fine. Maybe because I do the same thing as the character and kind of live in both and slip in and out, so I relate to it. People that don't do this, might find it harder to follow?

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I like the James Dean refrence. It's a very guy thing to do.

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This is a great line. I got what you meant right away. I would keep it. It's much better than saying something like, time seemed to slow.