The Review Club Forum Discussion for Jeff's Good Gra..

This is the place to respond to reviews and for further discussion of Jeff's Good Grace Soup.

Julie -

Listen, thanks so much for your candor and no, I certainly don't hate you for your opinion and can quite clearly see where you are coming from. This is easily the nicest bad review I've ever gotten.

The problem I often deal with - and I see everyone else deal with it, too - is sifting through conflicting messages. Example: several people who's opinion I seek and appreciate have read both pieces you talk about. You gave me that lovely review for "Death Fantasy ..." but this one didn't catch you because I couldn't get you to connect with the narrator and I jumped too much. Okay, I think, that's great advice. But then, another person loves "Good Grace" and tells me "Death Fantasy" is too jumpy and they never connected.

I only naively bring this up to see if it's happened to you and, if so, how you dealt with it. How can I ignore this great review offering a very sincere, focused, and so gently phrased opinion? But if I don't ignore this one, how do I ignore other positive ones that seem to make great points, too? Jeesh, is it obvious I have anxiety problems? Maybe this is something I should offer to the group. I guess the easy answer would be to say my stuff is polarizing and I should keep pushing forward and ignore everyone, but that's infantile and arrogant bullshit. Would love to hear your thoughts, if you can decipher anything out of those two paragraphs.

Okay, the POV. I guess when writing it, I never think of him switching who he's talking to, this is a story he's telling directly to her, he just doesn't make it clear until a page in. But I can see how I made that very unclear in my want to be artsy-fartsy. But, maybe that's a great idea, actually. What if I gave the entire piece a stronger 2nd person wash? Maybe even begin speaking directly to her at the beginning, which would allow me to allude to some of the jumpier sections you and others have had problems with in the past? Oo, that's exciting, what do you think? This story has evolved more than anything I've ever written. It'll be read at my funeral with the editor's note: still in progress.

I want to reiterate I appreciate you and this review. Why submit something if I don't want it to get beat up? And you are not alone with not enjoying this piece. I'd say it's 50/50 between praise and malaise. Talk to you soon.

Whew. I'm glad you took that well. I hate giving a 'bad' review because as you said it is all about one persons subjective viewpoint. I am terribly familiar with that response too, and unfortunately, I often take the bad review to heart. So what to do with conflicting reviews? I think the answer lies somewhere between finding the greater truth and trying to assess the reviewer�s motivations. For example, if 5 people tell you this is much too unfocused and provide detailed examples of how they feel then I think you need to take a second look. But if one person says it, who knows?

The POV idea of addressing it all in 2nd is a wonderful one. It wasn't that you used 2nd poorly, but I felt like it was trampled by the surrounding story. I felt like the story was about you and that story was being smothered by the other. I know that you have read cc's Thing That You Wanted, and I think that is an excellent example of using 2nd to connect with the reader. I wanted that feeling here, but I never felt like I as the reader could step into You. I never felt as if you connected to me. If that makes sense?

Anyways, what really matters is that you are aware that I know absolutely nothing about what makes a good story. All's I can say is what I like or don't, so my advice is if you like it ::tongue:: to the rest of the world! Of course, you probably won't be invited to many parties, but that's the price one pays.

Good luck with this, and let me know if you do change it to 2nd POV throughout. I imagine it will make for a much more interesting dynamic.

Julie

Julie,

On reading your review I was surprised to see you took "you" in this story as a POV change. Once I caught on, and my review gives clear advice how to make this clear, I only ever thought of "you" as the absent lost love the protagonist wished he could address. But he could only long within his mind to have her back so that he could do something, anything to please her. The "you" is a missing third party in this story, never a POV.

Is that right Jeffrey?

Yea, William I think you said that better than I could. When I start a story, thoughts like Point of View or Stream of Consciousness don't enter into the equation. She really is someone he wishes he could expressing everything to and is so frustrated he can't.

O, and I'm falling in love with you, Will. Let's never part. Your support has been tremendous and I sincerely appreciate it. And I think your comments and Julie's actually relate slightly. If I started the story with an open comment directly to her, then clean up that opening dialogue, couldn't that go along way to clarifying both complaints? Just a thought.

William, because I feel I'm intimately more connected with your book and have given some small suggestions before, I've decided to wait until everyone else reviews and give mine last. I just want to feel out how some of the things we've been discussing play with everyone else. I hope you don't mind.

Bill:

I don't disagree. But the fact is using you and speaking directly to the audience utilizing the you is a POV. It might not be the intention, and the actually change wasn't what bothered me. The fact that you was addressed halfway through, was what pulled me from the story. I felt like there was a disconnect between the story being told and the story between the narrator and you. I wanted the second one, but was denied the very things that would make it into a story. I'm sure that makes no sense. It doesn't even make much sense to me either.

Julie

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Jeff... I don't even know what to say to that. OK, I lie, or why would I be posting a comment? I haven't read/reviewed Good Grace Soup yet, although I will, sooner rather than later, hopefully, but this is a general reply.

First, technically, the minute you use the word "you" outside of dialogue, you're in second POV, or a hybrid of first/second POVs. Of course "you" is a character, just like "I" is a character in first person. That doesn't change the POV issue on a technical level. Again, I haven't read it yet, so I reserve comments on where you introduce the 2nd person POV.

Also... really, you don't think about POV before you write? REALLY? OK, everyone has different method, and I don't know if it works for you, but POV is one of the big 5 elements of story. Right up there with plot and character and setting and theme. Those are the 5 pieces that glue any piece, experimental, genre, childrens, etc. together. Every time. Always. I don't mean to lecture, and I'm sorry if I do, but those are things I always think about first, so maybe I just can't imagine NOT thinking about them....

Just my 2 cents....

-cc

*chuckle* Now I'd better get working on that review, huh? Put my money where my mouth is?

-cc

Ha, I know what your saying, and I'm sure somewhere in my brain are thoughts of POV, but as for worrying about five elements of a story or making conscious decisions to write this way or that, I only think about them when other people mention it and hell, maybe then I'll play around with stuff. Yes, I'd have to agree with you, the moment the character starts addressing someone directly, it's in the 2nd person. I didn't mean to imply Julie was incorrect, but I'm sincere when I say I don't think about it. I'm not sure what the five elements are (and I'm not sure if I want to know, C ::drool::). Just how I work. I let a story work itself in my brain, try to figure out how this charicature of me I've been working with would respond, and let the story work itself out. Maybe that's a poor method, but I like how my voice has been evolving (especially with great help from you guys). And I do have a strong f*****g aversion to writing help books, so maybe that leads me to respond in such a way.

I guess I'm saying I try to think as little as possible about technique and form with most stories, because I've found when I do, it becomes forced. I don't know; this is turning into a very ambiguous discussion. Maybe I just trust my instincts on POV and the tense of a story and, therefore, don't ever realize I'm making a decision like that. Am I making any sense?

Hell, read the story, C. Julie is right about several things, but I think Will's got some things right, too - at least because I feel he tracked the story so well, and that has to mean something.

Okay, I don't mean to keep going back to a selfish and relatively arbitrary discussion on my method - or lack thereof - and I see you listing these five elements: plot, character, setting, theme, and our friend, POV. I guess, to me, that's the definition of "story". So, when I sit down and write them, I don't have a thought differentiating the five, I guess. I just say, "Alright, Jeff, let's write a story," and those elements - most of the time, it seems - come bouncing along with that statement. Does that make any sense? I'm poorly educated and have to fight to keep up with the intelligence level of this group, but I do have this strong motivation to write out ... I would call them vignettes that are very internal and are trying to recreate a person thinking and acting through a moment as truly as possible. I guess that's my goal, and at the end of these little shorts, I'd hope the reader would have a greater understanding of why this person does some strange things.

Alright, I'm full of it today. I love you all. I'm going for a run.

Jeffrey,

People produced stories long before they analyzed the "elements of story." After all, they had to have stories before they could dissect them. Therefore people have been producing stories as you do since the only stories were those told around campfires.

To CC I would say, when Jeff addresses "you," it is his third person protagonist addressing his lost love, not addressing the reader. I'll take you and Julie's word that is a second person POV shift technically, but as it is done within an obvious third person narration, I think the intention is unmistakable, except for several unclarities in the first third of the story.

Triple Dub

Jeff... you make me laugh.

I don't think you have to consciously analyze the elements. I simply think you might be missing opportunities by not thinking about them at all. After all, they are the basic levels for technique, and by thinking about decisions in plot (timing, tension, twists, etc.) or POV or setting, etc. you may hit upon an idea to do something cool that heightens something in your story. I think, of all of them, that theme may be the most important, once you've got an idea of story, because then you can consider the point you want to make and use other techniques to make it. That's the whole reason I rehash those things when I write.

YES! I'll read the story, tonight, if possible, and leave you one of my famously wordy and long-winded (and perhaps preachy) reviews. They take me forever, so first, of course, I have to read criminal procedure and comparative law, so forgive me if I seem cranky. The other thing - have you read House of Leaves yet Jeff? If you haven't DO - you're an experimental, personal writer, and I think it's a perfect thing for you to be exposed to. If you have, look at how the elements work for Danielewski as an example of how those things work in a less conventional format. (I don't like how-to books either - why, when we have novels to read instead?)

As for what the "you" is - my final verdict (as if any of you care) will have to wait for my review when I can see it in operation myself.

And this isn't unnecessarily abstract, Jeff, although I can start a thread for this method stuff if you want it off yours. It's inherently important because it's a discussion of the "hows" of being a writer, generally applicable stuff. Don't take my comments as an attack - just what I've found works for me over the years.

-cc

I'm glad you laughed, C, I was afraid I'd be taken too seriously, there, and that is a fatal mistake to make with me. I'll give a recent anecdote; I was chatting with another friend on this site and I commented the story I was knee deep in was driving me crazy. She replied in her poetic way I should step outside and breath with the moon. A few minutes later she messaged back, asking what the moon had to say. I replied the moon said, "Why don't you put some pants on?" Well, she didn't think that was funny.

Givien some time to allow my manic explosions to quiet, I think my point was that when you mention thinking about tension or timing or point of view, I certainly understand their place and discuss them in my reviews, but in my own process, I try as best I can to encapsulate them all into one mantra I think of as "story". I really believe the whole argument touches on something I've talked about here, before, and that's pointing out the wizard behind the curtain. I find talking or thinking about those "hidden" techniques too much really take the magic out of the process, for me - just like I try to avoid talking about a story before its time because watching it fall on deaf ears saps away any motivation I might've had. Just another idiosyncrasy, I suppose, but one that's working for me, right now.

And Trip Dubs, you know your my brother!

Hey Jeff,

I just read your story to my wife and she fell on the floor laughing. She is a pro cook. Thought this was a story about restaurants, then they stopped for the ball game, then this guy burns up the town. LOVE IT. JUST FIX UP SO THEY KNOW WHAT "YOU" IS EARLY ON and this even better than Death 17.

Dub

Thanks a lot for your review, Wheldon. As for being not fully committed, I think I could go deeper. Some part of me fights unconditionally accepting my writing nature until I actually get published and don't feel like a fraud when I say I am a writer. So, maybe that does show in my work.

You're not the first person to want to hear about the fire earlier. I think it's a good idea, but was hesitant to introduce another topic I would move away from and refer back to, as the story is very jumpy already? Suggestions? Maybe if I was directly re-telling the day to "you", such a flashback could give me a vehicle foreshadow the fire better? Too cheesy?

Thanks, Rob, for another thoughtful review.

In my latest edit, I must've left out the line about the gas can being behind the generator. Didn't notice it until you felt it missing - thanks! A few other things - the box is a birthday present he sent her - did I forget that line, too? I'll have to go check, but I'm not sure if connecting the box to the fire would help anything. To me, it was a vehicle driving him to thoughts of her (and showing all is not well in their relationship).

You echo others who've read this story and see a lot of threads left loose. I admit to having problems seeing that. To me, any thread that didn't get tied to another was burnt in that fire. His relationships with that ghost her, with Calvin, with thoughts of a successful future, even with the town that treats him so well, he wants to burn away. He can deal with nothing else, anymore, but a vicious catharsis. Does that make any sense? And I wouldn't agree that one of the main themes is his pyromania - it's the climax. It's the result of the other themes mixing together and combusting. Boy, I can be full of s**t, sometimes, but that is how I see it. Any thoughts?

Thanks again, Rob, you hit on a couple of other moments I'll think about changing.

Considering your most recent posts:

You connected the returned gift to his actions perfectly just before he set the fire.

To mention fire earlier will diminish the impact of the supreme twist in the story, the act itself. As my review said, I saw the fire coming when the kid was caught playing with matches.

If you do anything earlier, you could increase your references to heat, brightness, etc. But you already have done this very well, and you should avoid tipping the twist too early.

I also noticed a critique of the ending. But I think his dying at the height of his fit is perfect; otherwise some prospect for his recovery would diminish the impact on the reader of his stupendous angst. And it is most fitting that she (or "you") who had made him at one point feel his life was perfect, was now the final straw AND the final longing thought of his life.

I do hope you make a new file whenever you make changes, so that you can return every word to its original form, or to any of the forms it has taken between first and most recent draft.

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No problem. I'm glad it helped, if at all. I love the idea and the way you developed it. Just felt a little rushed as you moved toward the climax. ;-)

Thanks for the review, Cameron.

I went through the last year writing in nothing but those incomplete sentences. It was a fun experiment and I like what I learned from it, but I think the experiment's done. This story still has some remnants of that, so I have to agree that many of the sentences might not have the power I wish. You are the second person to mention the "vacant" sentence, so maybe that one gets some work, eh?

As for the "you" thing, it seems everyone is 50/50. I don't know, my instinct is to keep it. I really like him wanting to talk to her directly and this is an internal piece. I don't know, Cameron. Something I'll have to ponder.

Thanks for giving me some great stuff to think about.