The Review Club Forum Can You Give Me A Reason...?

So I think this is the end of the line for me, unless someone can give me a good reason to stay....

I haven't always been available but when I have been I've tried to review in the hopes of being reviewed. I have looked over my work and while it is not always the cleanest, I feel that my time spent has not balanced the benifit to my writing.

I really like everyone in the group, and I have enjoyed various works by everyone in the group, but I feel that no one in the group is really making an effort to help out other writers. I am here to develop my writing and maybe, just maybe work towards publication. Is everyone getting that from this group? Am I the only one thats not?

I would like to stay if became a group where we all were working together to improve each others writing, but I just don't see it. Do You?

Unless someone can give me a good reason this will be my last week.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to read you writing and I hope that you have at least enjoyed mine.

Good luck to you,

Gabe

I hope you stay Gabe. I haven't been reviewing these past weeks. What I've found is that there's a fine line between creative bursts and reviews, and periods where there's not much happening. I told myself I wouldn't do reviews for a couple weeks as I was feeling a bit burnt out but will be back at it again in the next week or so, as my creative juices start flowing again into fiction work. In any case, I suspect it'll be a bit slow over the summer anyways. I don't expect to be too helpful until the fall. I certainly would hate to lose you.

Rob

Gabe - I've been feeling the EXACT same way for the past few weeks. My 'giving reviews' hasn't been even from week to week. Last week, I reviewed everyone except one (I couldn't find anything they hadn't already taken down). This week, I haven't reviewed anyone, in large part to me trying to figure out my moderator duties here on the site.

However, I've only gotten one review this week - and that was from you. (Thank you, by the way.) I have no idea what's going on. We lost two members last Sunday and went from 14 to 12. Looks like this group might lose 2 more.

Like you, I've learned a lot here and have made some great friends. It just seems this group has lost steam.

Thanks Rob and Belle. I think a lot of people feel the way you and I do Belle, but regardless it seems that very few of us are active. I hated the assignment format that we used to follow but at least then I was getting reviewed.

I went through and reviewed everyone this week except for Mike who has pulled everything down, and Kim, who I just haven't gotten to yet. I feel that I can do reviews without as many returns, I know I have more time than others. But I do expect a few. and unfortunatly I feel that the only thing I'm learning in this group is how to give reviews, rather than developing my writing.

I am truely looking for A reason to stay. And I want the group to speak up, to participate.

Gabe

Gabe -

I've long since figured out that there is no such thing as a perfect system. The assignment system people did get reviewed, but the same thing happened. And there was a lot of grumbling and people getting upset.

And trust me, I feel your pain. There have been weeks that I've done as many reviews as I possibly could (between everything else). And haven't gotten much in return. And there have been weeks where I've gotten far more than I deserved based on the amount of reviews that I've done.

And I apologize to both you and Belle, that I haven't been more proactive in filling those holes. But honestly if anyone is feeling left out, I will step in and do whatever I can. Please let me know. Because while I do see the lists every week, unfortuantly I haven't quite mastered the trick of clairvoyance.

As to a reason, well there are a lot. And some might apply and some might not. But honestly I like to both give and get feedback. I usually don't expect a quid pro quo on my writing.

Now as to why we are two members down. Well honestly neither of them had been doing reviews for weeks. And we didn't want you all to be wasting your time doing reviews for people who weren't at the very least doing reviews for other people.

Cameron

EDIT: Also those two had issues prior to not doing reviews for weeks. So, take that as you will.

If I were looking for a reason to stay, I would stay just to show the love to Cameron ::smile::

Thanks Cam for all of the work you put in!!

Brent -

Thanks. I wish I could take all the credit. But the other guys put as much work in as I do.

Cameron

I've reasoned that summers are always slower on every forum I've ever belonged to. People have kids at home and are just busier. It just surprised me to find that Gabe felt the same way I did at the exact same time.

And, Cameron, thanks for taking down the two who consistently left no reviews.

A thought: We could do a combination of the two systems we've had for reviewing. We could maintain the current system and also require everyone to do at least one review per week to keep everyone involved?

Okay so now that there is a dialogue open about this I feel that I can talk a little more freely about everything that has been going on... rather what hasn't been going on.

It is not that I'm not getting reviews... although I'm not to often. This isn't me complaining about not being reviewed, because well.. I'm just not that whiney. Part of my concern, and I really don't want to offend, and maybe this is due to the summer slump, but the reviews I have gotten have been less and less helpful. I know everyone in the group can be, they have been in the past, but I feel we are all paying a lip service to reviewing.

I originally joined the group because CC My wife and I were spending less and less time togeather because she was writing and I was, well, watching TV. So I joined to be part of her life in this respect. Now that I have begun to write and I have decided that I like it and would like to be better at it, maybe even move towards publication, I want an active group that can help me with those goals, and want to help with the goals of others.

I have an issue with folks here telling me that it is the summer slump. The very same people that can correct the problems and feelings I'm having about this group.

So here it is, my solution to this problem... it's not an overall fix, but it may be a fix for me. I'm gonna give it two weeks. Every week I am going to do my best to review, I'm going to make sure I'm worth some points for you all to feed on, which means you'll be getting reviews. In turn I am going to email those who have helped me in the past and ask them to review me, a specific piece or a specific chapter. i will remind you with an email that I still exist. This will give you seven days to review should I ask.

I hope you can all find the time to help me the way I hope to help you.

Thanks,

Gabe

Thanks for reconsidering Gabe. I do agree that the reviews have become less in-depth around here than they have been in the past. I honestly hadn't even thought of that until you just now brought it up. But it is true. I'm 100% behind your desire for reviews to be more thorough.

I don't know how it will play out, but best of luck over the next two weeks in getting people to correct the problems and feelings you are having.

Thanks for letting us know where you stand.

I find the most the reviews I have received here as valuable as gold; especial the line edits-top notch! Perhaps we need to up the review count by one.

My only complaint is that I've read a few reviews, of other authors, that are too short and almost a blurb. In my opinion a review should be at least one page. There is not a piece posted here, especially mine, that isn't in need of improvement-that's why we're here.

Perhaps reviewers feel everything has been said about a piece of yours. Sans line-editing, which there's no reason to redo, echoing another writer's review is a benefit to the author. When two or three reviewers write about the same problem, an author is more likely to correct that problem. This why I do not read the other reviews when I critique.

I hope you stay, I see great potential in some of your work.

To everyone, I am always available for requests to review a piece. I know I am a tough reviewer, but this what you need if you want to be published. Magazine and book editors are thrice as tough as I'll ever be on you.

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Good point Thomas. I think a great tool for writing more thorough reviews is to abstain from reading other reviews first. You may be repeating what others have said, or you may seem to be coming out of left field, either way it is very helpful to the person being critiqued.

Any other thoughts out there on how to write more thorough reviews?

I cannot say one way or the other what people want from their reviewers. But I feel now that I look back on it, that I am the only one at fault if my reviewers aren't reviewing helpfully. So at the beginning of each chapter I am going to pose questions about my piece that I would like looked at with my piece, I would also hope for reviewers to step outside of the box and bluggeon me with things I haven't thought of to ask.

On a different note, please, if you recieve a review request from me via email you don't have to review me. All that I ask is that you let me know why you can't review me. I feel that this type of open dialogue will help everyone be more aware of others time restraints and help our members be aware that the group is still here.


I suppose thats it,

Gabe

I understand the frustration on both sides, I think.

Personally, I've been one of those jerks not reviewing lately. I genuinely wish I could, but, if any of you ACTUALLY MISS my rambling, this isn't really a summer slump for me, it's more of a holy F**K! I didn't start studying for the bar soon enough (come on Rob, back me up here) and STILL have EIGHT (yeah 8) topics to cover before the exam on the 24th. So it's about 16 hours a day of law for me right now. I will be back at the end of the month, around the 30th.

I can't say though, that even before the big red Barbri books of law whisked me off to my own personal hell, that I was entirely thrilled either. I have to agree with Gabe and Brent that quality has been down. But that's not my only problem, unfortunately.

First, I think we need to all make an effort to do at least one review a week, but I don't want to make it mandatory. I think that it might work to take people off the list if they don't review for 2 weeks in a row and only put them back on once they do. But ultimately, I don't want to go back to assignments either. We're all adults, we all want to improve and get feedback, we all need to be personally responsible for making this work, and maybe that's all we need -- the reminder that we all need to participate. I, for one, am looking forward to reviewing again because several of you have pieces that I've read substantially into and am looking forward to returning to. But I wrote this whole paragraph to say that while quality is paramount, QUANTITY is important too.

OK, I said I had another problem. I do. It relates to quantity being important. I'm primarily a novel writer. I don't know why I don't usually get ideas for shorts, if it's a conceptual issue, whatever, but most of the stuff I'm writing and posting is a long consecutive work. If people arent reviewing me regularly enough, I'm never getting the kind of comprehensive feedback that really helps me with a novel sized work. I wonder if the other primary novelists have similar problems? Do I have a solution to this that still gets you wonderful short story people reviewed while giving us novelists some comprehensive feedback? Not really, other than quantitative consistency as well as qualitative consistency. I think we could also talk about a partnership system for the straight novelists, but how to do this without disrupting incentives and remaining fair... I got not much. Ideas would be MUCH appreciated.

Otherwise, for reviews, I'd like to point everybody back to Brent's list of things to think about. I think that's a great tool for substantive reviewing, which, especially for people that are posting drafts, would be really helpful. Asking questions at the bottom of a piece (but still in the piece, it's so easy to miss that little box shoved off to the right of the story) has also helped me get the feedback I want. I think labelling a piece based on what level of revision it is would help too so that reviewers know if this is a draft (where substance is probably more important) or a revision (where the plot etc. is hopefully ironed out and the language polishing is more important).

One more thing. Forum participation! I think that a lot of us would get the feedback we desire if, starting from the initial point of a review, there were dialogues in our respective forums about our issues and the reviewers talked as well as the writers. I know I've asked questions in my forum that haven't been answered, and I've heard grumbles from some of the rest of you on this score as well. Granted, again, I gracefully accept my part in the non-participation blame game and promise sincerely that I will be back shortly.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program and criminal procedure for me.

-cc

Okay edit to my previous edit. We also tried to contact the two members who we removed several times and we didn't get a reply.

And I don't know if this is relevant, but I wanted to tell a story about why I wanted to start this group. Now this is just my reasoning. I've been hunting for a place to get decent, thoughtful and challenging reviews for a long time. When I stumbled onto Urbis, I though well s**t, this will probably be good.

But I found out quickly that out of every ten reviews I got, maybe one was worth anything. On top of that, I was doing review after review after review and I wasn't getting anything for it. So even with the reviews I unlocked, I just felt generally lost and confused. On top of that I wasn't getting any better.

So I was talking with CC one night and the idea for this group came about. Since we've started this group, I've learned a lot. This has been one of best experiences I've had with any writing group, ever.

And we've gone through some growing pains, but I do take a certain amount of pride from this group. But in the end this isn't my thing. This isn't CC's thing. This is OUR group. So what I want to know is how can I motivate you all? What can I do that would make you want to participate? We seem to go through mood swings, but they seem short lived and generally involve some sort of drastic action. How can I build ownership from you, the members? Because I'll be honest, I'm straight tapped out of ideas. I don't want to be anyone's parent. And I'm certainly not going to stand over you telling you to do reviews. At least not anymore.

So that's all I have to say.

Hi all-

First, I want to apologize for not being around as often these days. I think I mentioned it before, but things have been a bit hectic for me lately between full time work while wrapping up business school and planning an October wedding. I really didn't mean to discourage any of the writers here because of a lack of participation. One of the reasons why I took down my posts was because I felt bad when I got reviewed but I didn't have to time to reciprocate. Trust me, I'd much rather be reading other people's works than learning about covered interest arbitrage (international finance = yuck). I'm hoping to get back on track in the near future.

As to address CC's question regarding novel reviews, I can say I definitely relate. I'm realizing that 1. novels are not just short stories in long format and 2. novels aren't the easiest to review online (especially true with 2). The biggest struggle is that for a novel, each chapter should build momentum that propels the reader forward into the story. The problem comes when online readers/reviewers must stop after each chapter (granted, each chapter is a natural break in the action). Context becomes less immediate, and character development is stunted. And it's just plain difficult to read 100+ pages off a computer screen. Actually, I've considered supplimenting my workshop time online with a real time physical workshop...hopefully I can find one in Chicago.

But don't get me wrong. I still think this group is a wonderful resource. Gabe, I share your desire to maybe one day become a published author. I realize you're frustrated, but I definitely still see the benefits of this group. But to pass on some advice I gleaned from the book On Writing by Stephen King; one of the best ways to improve your writing skills to be a voracious reader. Even if reviews have been lacking, I'd still argue that reading almost anything and everything you can is helpful. Read novels from good authors. Read unpublished (or as yet unpublished) pieces. Read even from bad authors (at least you'll know what to avoid). Understand what works, what doesn't work, what are the trends, and what are the ways you can go against the grain.

I know it sucks when reviews are anemic, and I'm not trying to excuse underwritten reviews. Feedback should be a constructive thing. But I'd really encourage you to not just review other people's work for the sake of reciprocity, or just in hopes of someone reading your work. Reading will improve your writing inevitably. It doesn't have to be exclusive to this group, but this is a great resource to have handy...

k, so here's my two cents if it makes any difference.

First, thank you to CC, Gabe, and Papa Cameron (tee hee) for working hard to develop a positive writers group with excellent writers. And thanks to the wonderful writers. It has been a joy to read, and be reviewed by each of you.

Okay, now for the icky stuff. I apologize for my recent lack of reviewing, both in quantity and quality. Here's the thing. I have been writing tirelessly, and it's hard to give that up. Yes, I'm selfish.

On the other hand, I also feel like I am not beneficial to many of you, and I don't want to be the bad reviewer everyone hates. I am not a line editor, nor am I a brilliant story reviewer like many others. I don't have the appreciation for literary fiction that many others have, and prefer to write and read more commercial stuff.

So if you don't mind those flaws, I would love to review you. Just let me know so I don't waste the time of writers I do not help, and can focus on some of the things I can offer, which is plot, characterization, humor, and giving you a review based on the average commercial reader.

I hope we can keep this group moving forward, but I do understand if some of you prefer to leave. All's I can say is you will be missed.

Julie

Thank you Cam for all that you do, and also all the administrators and the members. The fact is this is the best group for reviews of any group I've run across. Reviewing does help make you a better writer and I believe we each have something to contribute to help us all improve as writers (I know I've learned alot). Thanks Gabe for understanding and for speaking your mind -- your comments are fair. I know that I should step up to the plate and get back into reviewing regularly; fact is I'm a bit burnt out from it and haven't been focused on my own work. I want to recharge a bit before jumping back into the fray. I'll be especially diligent to get back in knowing that others are patiently waiting for reviews. I'm not particularly concerned about reviews at this point for myself, happy to have them to help me keep in mind issues. The idea of posting a few things you're concerned about in the posting is one I've used, so that the comments can be geared around my concerns.

Here to continued reviewing and success for all.

Cheers! Rob

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Julie (and all), I owe you an apology. When I get a review, I am AWFUL at thanking you for it, or making a comment. Your reviews have never offended me, and I feel badly that you think they might have. When I first joined this group I felt intimidated by you (and still do, to some extent). Your reviews, along with CC's and others, are so eloquent and intelligent, I felt like the red-headed stepchild. All I could offer with any degree of certainty were line edits, and I felt like I was cheating everyone with those. POV? Huh? Passive voice? Say what? However, I could tell you when you needed a comma.

Others have said it, and I'll echo the sentiment. I have learned so much from this group alone, I can't even tell you. I understand being distracted by bigger issues (such as passing the bar exam or planning a wedding). I also understand about being burned out. It just seems we all hit our individual walls at the same time.

I appreciate Gabe bringing this topic to the fore.