WHO’S THE BULLY NOW?

I have been musing on an issue...

The word bully did not exist when I was growing up. The concept was around I’m sure; anywhere there are kids (or adults for that matter) there’s bound to be a hierarchy forming, and a top-dog rising… Part of human nature, one would assume.

I’ve been a victim of many things but bullied as a youngster - no. Sure there were the usual cliques; the ‘in’ girls, the ‘bad’ boys, the ‘nerds’ and so forth. Then again those were the days when as a girl you kept away from certain areas, such as the boy’s lockers on the ground floor outside the cookery room - a gauntlet you ran through, risking any amount of teenage-boy hand groping…

Today, all those young boys would probably be in therapy or on some mind-altering medication or kicked around schools were they to attempt similar behaviors. Back then we just got on with it. It was part of school-life. Some of those boys went on to become great people, sportsmen, academics, business executives. The girls - none of us suffered any permanent psychological ‘damage’. Today we’d probably be in therapy too I guess…

I was bullied as an adult. By other adults. Social Media has its benefits but has also given rise to the ‘keyboard-warriors’. I quit all Social Media several years ago and it has been a blissful time since.

I also taught my boys to use words; use language to overcome the new ‘bullying’ trend, on and off-line. I showed them the magical power of the word “And?” as a response to any insult flung their way. There is no come-back to this single word. One can say it as a response over and over and the ‘bully’ sooner or later runs out of insults. Quite fun to watch actually.

When I arrived on here about a month ago, I noticed a couple of things: Everyone was so nice! All the reviews - however ‘bad’ the piece of writing was - were positive, feel-good accolades. There were moments when I wondered if I’d somehow found my way into a Mutual Admiration Society disguised as a writer’s hang-out.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for positivity and not tearing people down. But there was a level of discomfort; I was sensing that this mutual admiration was destructive rather than constructive, especially for the young and those of all ages just embarking on the great writing journey. I wrote a piece on mediocrity a while back, and yeah, I was feeling as though all this niceness everywhere was promoting and supporting this mediocrity.

How is a new writer to explore, expand, perfect, if their every offering is accompanied by gushing admiration from the readers? One learns any craft through correcting mistakes. We call ‘Masters’ those few who have perfected their craft; over a long period of time and after undergoing any amount of ‘botched’ and ‘butchered’ attempts. Usually the public never sees those, they see the perfected craft, the ‘Masterpieces’.

In this new world of computers and internet and instant connectivity, sites such as these have emerged. On the surface, they seem great - you are afforded the freedom to share your work, to expose it to the world by a mere click of a button. Everyone is a writer; everyone suddenly has the ability and the opportunity to ‘get out there’, mix with like-minded people, exchange offerings.

Problem is, these offerings are often the botched and butchered first attempts, the ones the world once never saw. None of us here are ‘Masters’, else we’d be sitting comfy in some place like L.A., sipping a martini poolside, watching the royalties pour in.

I have come across example after example of extremely poor work, cringe-worthy work. I have scrolled down and read bullshit after bullshit review, others seeing greatness where there is none, lauding a creativity that is non-existent. I have seen the creators of these botched pieces respond with “Awww…” and “:)” and any amount of feel good acronyms.

Everyone gets rewarded for encouraging this mediocrity. The writers, given time are awarded a little gold star, like in school. The reviewers in turn, given time, are awarded their own little thingy.

I’ve got a little gold star. Here’s the problem: Is it real? Am I to believe from this that my work merits it? In an environment where EVERYONE is lauded and where reviews have to be over a certain percentage (95% or higher!) to earn the top reviewer thingy, how good is my work REALLY?

Not everyone belongs to this society. I’ve met a few in my brief time here who dare to openly criticize and offer genuine feedback. Some do it nicely, some are quite brash and ‘in your face’ and some like me, work with new writers behind the scenes, when we spy raw talent and a willingness to work, to evolve.

What I am finding interesting is how people react to outright criticism, to the brashness of a few who say it as they see it. If it is crap, they call it crap. If it needs work, they say it needs work. Somehow, these people are perceived as ‘bullies’; and are hounded down, crushed, bullied so much that this dissuades others from openly speaking their mind. In the end they get banned from the site. The status-quo of mediocrity and feel-good brotherhood is thus maintained.

I have to question here, who the real bullies are. Are they the people who believe in truth and in honest opinion and in their right to voice this opinion on the premise that they are helping? Or are they the emergent warriors, quickly rising to defend the ‘hapless victims’ of this honesty? Their excuse sits on the premise that a bad review i.e. a negative review is unwelcome here, as this is a nurturing, supportive environment.

My argument is that these warriors who spew out bullish and despicable words in defense of mediocrity ought not to emerge. Life is tough. Young people and new writers need to learn how to defend themselves, how to take in criticism in whatever form it arrives and learn from it. On their own. This builds resilience and generates the need/desire to improve, perfect their craft. 

It is partly the fault of this site, the giving out of all these little thingies on your profile others see and aspire to gain. I have three now, and I don’t ‘trust’ any of them. I’m getting a fourth one soon, that of ‘top reviewer’. Honestly? I only review work I feel merits my positive review. The botched and butchered pieces I leave alone, as I cannot award them low points or speak sincerely. (More on this later.) So this new thingy coming my way soon is probably the only one I merit, but it too sits on falsity, because I have been selective in the work I review.

The past few days, my news-feed has been full of a mix of mutual-admiration and atrocious bullying. Quite innocently, I stumbled into a situation where the warriors were on the attack. Defending ‘hapless’ women (including myself) and others who have fallen prey to ‘honesty’. I’m far from hapless and certainly not in need of any male(s) coming to my rescue.

I took the criticism aimed my way and turned it into word-play, a glib banter. I rather enjoyed it. Then again I am older and perhaps significantly more resilient than some of the budding writers on here. Regardless, what I was reading - I can only say it took a great amount of self-control not to engage.

In hind-sight, I should have engaged, thus this piece. See, I was surrounded by all this admiration I almost fell victim to the mediocrity. I almost joined the ‘Society’, fearing a back-lash, fearing my being banned from this place which despite its issues, still attracts me, still inspires me.

I fear for the new generation overall. I fear for young/new writers the most. I say to you now, openly ask for criticism. Never accept praise or feel-good accolades on face-value. Fight. Get out of the cocoon of niceness and political correctness and see your work for what it is. Early, botched attempts at a craft many spend a lifetime perfecting and even then, find they have run out of time.

To reviewers and seasoned writers, I say cut the bullshit. Forget that little thingy pushing you to reward where reward is not merited. Help young talent openly or behind the scenes but HELP them. Don’t fear speaking the truth. Truth is good. Criticism is good. Praise is good, when it is merited.

Do any of you honestly KNOW how good your craft is? Do you believe the false niceties and accolades? Is there a part of you- like there is in me - which questions the validity of every ‘review’ you receive? There should be.

Here’s the thing: I had a very early poem sitting unnoticed under the title ‘Spring 2012’. Uninspiring title, right - but that was how I headed all my work on notebooks when I was writing out and about.

What did I do? I changed the title. Suddenly it became the best thing since sliced bread. It got more reviews than any of my other pieces - some of which are far superior. It became a wagon everyone jumped on and gloriously lauded, trying to outdo each other in praise. My somewhat cynical mind watched with amusement. A background in Sales and Marketing comes in handy sometimes…

I played the game, responding with profuse thanks and appreciation in turn. It’s a game. Give nice, receive nice. Do it often enough and you start to believe it’s real. Your work is that good! Is it? Your review is honest and free from the pressure to conform and speak within the PC guidelines! Is it?

Author's Note

I am really not looking for reviews here. I am looking for honest and open discussion. Am I wrong? Prove it. Am I right? Prove it.

Reviews

[Davidgeo]

Irish Murphy's pigs were bullies.... so were them god damn pig dogs... Tiger, Wolf, and Creampuff. Also, Cecil, the impotent ram... I think he's been havin gay sheep on goat sex with The Goat....

Suprisingly, despite The Goat's obvious strength.... The Goat turned out to be a bottom....

A fine story none the less.

[Elise Anton]

Huh? You're going to call me simple again, I can feel it coming my way. Heeeeeere it comes.....

[Davidgeo]

It is simple.... http://furrypause.com/cartoons/footrotflats/misc/index.htm

[Elise Anton]

Haha... ha.

[Kaliope]

Awesome... full marks. Keep up the good work!

Nah, just kidding :-) Can't say I disagree with anything you said, although I think on this site one is more likely to receive valuable feedback than on others (wattpad comes immediately to my mind) - at least once you've figured out whom to ask.

The tough thing about criticism is... well, I remember how utterly scared I was when I posted my first piece of work and if the reviews had been devastating, I certainly would have been reluctant to post anything else. I'm not an over-sensitive teenager anymore, mind you, in fact I consider myself quite robust, but for someone still struggling to find one's place in life - oh, bursting the bubble can be quite a blow. I wouldn't call it bullying though.

Personally, I always try to give either honest feedback or none at all. When I see problems, I address them and since I am here to become a better writer, I appreciate the same in return. But I know a review can take quite a while (several hours of reading, reflecting on a story/chapter and sorting my thoughts are not uncommon in my case) and it takes effort to pinpoint the things that didn't work. Yet, since I feel that it helps me find problems in my own work I make that effort. Do I come across as a bully? Hopefully not, but I get blocked occasionally. Once by a kid who boasted that he wrote a book chapter in two hours (less time than I spent on the review actually) and posted it without any editing. He was obviously pissed when I pointed out (rather gently I'd say) that his chapter needed a ton of more work. Fun fact: he still kept sending me reading requests.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that to me anyone saying they wish honest feedback is "fair game". Anyone saying "be nice" is off limits. I simply can't be nice and honest at the same time. My honest thoughts aren't always flattering and even if they are - even if I consider a text is the best thing since sliced bread - it's not nice of me to say it, it's just my opinion. If the writer didn't specify his/her expectations and I'm reviewing them for the first time, I usually add a disclaimer at the beginning of the review, clarifying that it's all just subjective opinion and not my goal to be mean. Seems to work for the most part.

All in all, criticism is a kind of art in its own, I suppose. Not that I'd purport I've mastered it, but I've seen incredibly talented writers here who seemingly couldn't spot the most blatant problems in someone else's text (and I don't think they were playing nice) and I've witnessed mediocre writers giving the most insightful reviews one could ever wish for. A good writer doesn't necessarily make a good critic and vice versa. The rating system on this page is definitely not helpful either, thus I've stopped using it. Maybe some sort of questionnaire would be a better solution (e.g. on a scale of 1 to 5 how developed were the characters/how was pacing/grammar/setting etc. ) I've even thought about starting a reviewing contest, but I haven't figured out the logistics yet. Would anyone even be interested to participate? Maybe we could start a group that doesn't promise a cuddly pat on the back to anyone but honest opinion and feedback? Perhaps we should develop a rating system of our own? Would that seem too elitist or pretentious? Oh, I don't know.

For myself, I guess, I kind of rate my reviewers in my mind. There are some people I know I can trust to be brutally honest with me. I always listen closely to them, even if I don't always follow their advice. Some people I value for their wise insights about life and the meanings behind stories; not everyone is obsessed with technicalities, as I tend to be, and I deeply appreciate that. Others still are obviously just flattering me, hoping I'll do the same in return, which rarely works out. Most fall somewhere in the middle, I guess, and I'm fine with that as well.

In the end, the vast majority of us writers won't ever make a living of our hobby, however awesome that would be. Gosh, I wish I could earn money doing what I love, but I don't expect to. I'm glad about this community though, with all its flaws and shortcomings and I still feel I'm learning something here. And I'll never take a simple "keep up the good work", that doesn't justify the notion in any way, seriously.

[richy]

Get this group started and I'll be the first to offer my writings up on the chopping block.

[Elise Anton]

Thanks for stopping by and reading Kaliope, as well as for your insightful remarks. I've been blocked a few times myself and as anyone I have reviewed can attest, I am far from a bully. I will however be honest and I always add the disclaimer "take it, leave it, tell me to shut up" or variations of it. I cannot claim to be a 'critic' as I have not made any critical observations outside of this site. I do however consider myself profficient in both language use and grammar and often point out errors/omissions. Sometimes a writer is too 'close' to their work (myself included) to spot inconsistencies, overused words, missing punctuation etc... That's why editors exist lol.

Re the rating system, I do have strong feelings about the way it is set up. I have not detected any moderators here and despite several times reporting 'spam' I have seen it over and over (the profile I reported) so I cannot say for sure whether this site is monitored/moderated.

Others have suggested forming groups and using different rating systems. My argument I guess is that we should not be 'forced' to hide within groups in order to function within the 'protocols' of this site. We should (in an ideal environment) be free to voice our opinions and offer unbiased or unfettered critique. Of course, again, taking into account the age of the writer and/or their relative inexperience.

Wattpad has a different system on the surface but it too follows the principle of 'mediocrity is fine' - perhaps it goes even further by judging the quality of ones work not on its true merits (there is no means to critique) but by how many followers and little stars one can amass by vigorous self-promotion...

I honestly don't have the answers. My way of 'operating' within this current system is to review pieces I like and I feel merit my observations. The ones I cannot read past the first few lines/first page, I leave alone, espcially if I scroll down and see the many 'accolades' accompanying the piece. My speaking honestly in that environment would mean either my being blocked or attacked for my 'insensitivity'...

[Elise Anton]

Haha richy, I knew this would raise a response from you. Maybe we should form a secret society lol

[Kaliope]

Well, doesn't have to be a secret society by any means, but I certainly do get your point.

I don't get that feeling that there are any moderators around either and for that I'd say the site actually functions pretty well. The forums and the general writing page are useless because of the spam, but at least the profiles and individual writing pages aren't cluttered with unrelated junk.

As to pieces that are hard to get through but praised nonetheless... well, I'm a bit conflicted about leaving them alone. Especially if someone sent me a reading request (yeah, I'm one of those lunatics who haven't turned that feature off ;-)). If I feel I have to say something of value I usually do, but I have to admit that from some pieces I'm staying away. Not in fear I might elicit an adverse reaction though, but rather because I can't be fair in those cases. It's often the premise itself that I utterly dislike and it heavily bleeds into my reaction. So it could be the most elegant application of language, if i despise the overall message I won't find anything to praise - well, I'm not a professional critic either :-)

[Elise Anton]

I detest hypocracy. That's why I have to stay away... Sometimes when I get a request from someone I don't know I try the sandwich approach: nice - honest - nice... ending on a positive... but still get repercussions...

I hate that I have to play games.

[richy]

A public society with secrets! now we're getting somewhere!

[Relic]

I used to get 14 reading requests at a time. I've also gotten many, many friend requests from people who never bothered to review any of my writing after I reviewed theirs. Its been a problem here for many years.

[M. L. F.]

This stuff is too hilarious not to comment.. I agree with the the sentiment though. It is detrimental to the authors here to tell them every work is perfect as a means of encouragement. Of course sometimes we read things we think are damn good, and we SHOULD tell each other when we see these works...That said, it is more encouraging to tell them in an objective and positive way what errors you find that they may be too close to notice, and to offer constructive, (key word) constructive ideas and tips as how to better their work in the future. There is a fundamental difference between ripping on a writers personal writing style or creative freedom, and offering thoughts on how to help bring out the diamonds in the rough. After all, even diamonds need polishing. Even great writers, published and non, make big blunders from time to time, and small ones alike, which go unnoticed without the eye of an editor, or honest friend. That is what we should all be here to do, help each other, not tear each other under for our own glory. Nice convo guys... I thoroughly enjoyed reading it lol.... ;)

[Elise Anton]

Nice of you to join us in this discussion relic. Your input is appreciated of course.

[Kaliope]

@richy: Public Society with Secrets... now that's an awesome name for a group. We should definitely get that started :-D

@relic: yup, that's definitely true. What irks me even more are people that request a review and then don't acknowledge it. I don't need much, a "thank you for your time" or even a "shut up, I think you're wrong" would be nice, but no reaction at all is certainly a pointer that I won't review them again.

@Elise: Sandwich approach - like the expression, basically that's how I was taught to do it. Can't for the life of me remember when or under which circumstances though. Is that something they teach in communication courses? I'm sure I've heard that somewhere... just can't remember where...

@M. L. Stuitje: I think no one here is trying to be destructive on purpose but people come to his site with different expectations. E.g. I just saw that a writer I've given a review closed her profile shortly afterwards. Imho I didn't rip her work apart, I pointed out positives but there were a lot of problems with her writing in terms of character development and tone, so I addressed them. I hate the thought that she might have given up because of my comment, but what else should I have done? She posted an entire novel, probably worked on it for years, so I can't help but feeling a bit bad about her leaving. Unfortunately "constructive" is a somewhat subjective term, not everyone interprets it in the same way and there are no guidelines to be found here. I think I have a fairly good grasp of "constructive feedback" but even so, I don't wont to hurt and I don't want to discourage. I'm a learner as well, as both a writer and a critic so I might be wrong. Chances are I am occasionally, but it's even harder to get valuable feedback on one's critique than on one's writing.

[Relic]

I've seen that more times than you know. I never accept a friend request from someone who hasn't reviewed me first. Or if I do, I'll check their stats. If I see they have 118 reviews received and they've only given 3, bye bye.

[M. L. F.]

Yes, I agree. Sorry you had this experience and I hope she keeps trying. I mean constructive likely in the same manner you do, the same manner most of us speaking here do... Which is positive. But yes, I know it is a fragile dance, unfortunately..

[Elise Anton]

@Kaliope: Commerce/Marketing degree and one thing I managed to retain lol - the sandwich... comes in handy.
@relic: Is this a split/multiple personality approach?
@richy and Kaliope: Kinda liking the idea more now ;)

[Davidgeo]

This particular thread has a t**d in the punch bowl. Some jerk talking about ignoring someone by looking at there "reviewing stats".... his kind will never get it. Read whatever you want ignore whatever you write whatever you want. But don't base it off statistics some writing site keeps for non-writing purposes. Relic,,,, you treat this place as a social media hand holding party but you talk about creativity and encouraging growth..... you're a hypocrite - creativity and growth are not enhanced by your demeanor or philosophy... they are stifled because you deem evil and worthless any angle not in line with your own. Also, you stalk women and you send endless streams of PM's to girls on this site... young girls. Teenaged girls... you're in your 50's Tim, leave them be; even if your intention is to just "get to know them" it's pretty creepy the way you do it. Knock that s**t off buddy. Tell your buddies Anto and Wordman the same. You think I'm actually this much of an a*****e? Well, yes, I am.... but I exaggerated myself to become visible to draw your and fascist little morality clan of trolls out. You fellas didn't let me down. I'll be watching you, maybe not all the time but, I will not forget you. I know what you really are.

[cloud]

To honestly critique is fine but no one here has a degree in poetry do they? I wouldn't want one. I always wrote for fun. What good would it do me to waste my time on a writing site giving critiques for no wages? The owner doesn't even care about that. This is all subjective anyway. I might like something you don't. You might like something I don't. If I don't like a poem I look for something else.

[Elise Anton]

Absolutely agree with you 100%. I guess I'm not talking about style or technicalities here, rather basic stuff like grammar/punctuation/sentence structure etc. If the owner doesn't 'care' as you say, then why is there a biased rating system in place and a whole bunch of 'meaningless' awards? Do you read and move on or do you leave a comment and/or rating? Curious :)

[cloud]

Sometimes I'll leave a comment, sometimes not. The awards were probably software he had fun with and added it on. All poetry has cups don't they. Just gimmicks to me. I don't pay attention to ratings systems either.

[Elise Anton]

That's a good thing, not paying attention to someone's 'software gimmick'. But for the many new/young writers seeking honest reviews and a way to better their craft... They are left either awash with a flurry of positivity or dishonesty. HOW will they know they are improving/evolving in such an environmet? It's not this site alonr, I've wondered into several and it's the same old - different rating 'systems' but all encouraging the lauding of mediocrity.

[cloud]

How many want honest reviews though? Would they stay if they weren't fawned over? They act nice so they'll get nice in return.

[Elise Anton]

Good point. Maybe if they wandered off though, those who were left might actually create this nurturing and thriving and striving for excellence environment I dream of? Sigh.

[cloud]

Being I only wrote for fun, I guess I wouldn't write anymore either.

[Elise Anton]

Writing for fun is good. I do it all the time. Sometimes even intentionally to break out of the seriousness. But I've been at this for a long time. Back when I first started, what few words remain were cringe-worthy. I didn't have the internet to research or places like this to hang out at. I had books. So I read and I read. Did it make me a better writer? Perhaps. Certainly my vocabulary improved. Today's writers are spoiled for choice.

Don't denigrate yourself or throw a veiled accusation... Even writing for fun, I still make sure I have spelled 'there' instead of 'their'... It's a matter of pride in one's work, fun or otherwise :)

[cloud]

http://www.writerscafe.org/writing/rolandpetrov/1538169/
They mention the ratings system in the messages.

[Elise Anton]

Yeah, I read it thanks. read the conversation between myself and archos below. (the later remarks).

[Archos]

I agree with what I understood from your comments, UFO, that is: people might stop writing due to receiving negative feedback. However, is it actually worse, than having people with great potential stagnate, because they believe they are good enough? And anyway, many people around here, it might be a bit harsh thing to say, are just wasting their time - because they write tons of rubbish and since they believe it's good, they keep writing (and maybe they could get better if they were encouraged to work on themselves, rather than praised)

[Elise Anton]

Over on wattpad where I also hang out, things are even worse: 211K reads 2.7K 'stars' 616 comments... This for a 'love story' with b***s on the cover and one I couldn't get past the first page because my head hurt by all the trite over-used crap like: "It's pitiful. I mean... Damn!" He said rubbing his hand through his black glossy perfectly cut hair." Comments: "Ohhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiit" "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa????" "Lolz :) :) :)" On and on.

[cloud]

So as far as the point system goes it encourages you to write more, create groups, share and be more active. Or in other words create more of an opportunity for traffic.

[Elise Anton]

Traffic rocks (as far as profit) Points are the way, my friend. I have adblock so don't see the advertisements. Are there any/many?

[cloud]

I have it too.

[Archos]

Haha, same here. But I had better turn it off. Although wc(I always laugh at the abbreviation) isn't ideal, look at the adds is the least I can do for a website where I met so many great people.

[Elise Anton]

Is there a lot of aggs? All I see is "your add could go here" which always amuses me because I don't know why they would think I'd pay to have my worl advertised?

[Elise Anton]

Dud I write aggs? Shoot me down! I meant adds duh!

Also go check this out:
read moreDud I write aggs? Shoot me down! I meant adds duh!

Also go check this out:

http://www.writerscafe.org/writing/HouseofRelics/1730587/

[Davidgeo]

Relic (UFO), man.... most people already know you are also UFO.... just post under a single profile bud. Your game is kinda played out now man... time to play straight up. Okay Relic? Remember in that little story you wrote yesterday, you spoke about trolls creating multiple profiles.... pot meet kettle (you're a friggin hypocrite dude)

[Archos]

I absolutely agree with you and I think that this had to be said. I too am guilty of giving not exactly dishonest reviews, but ones in which I mention what I liked, but not the overall impression (which would rarely please the writer). If I see anything to criticize, I do and I find works 'worthy' of criticism far better than those, which are difficult to comment by anything but 'I enjoyed it' (though if I were to be honest, I would have to add 'but it was nothing special'). And the same goes for the received reviews: I value criticism far more, than a review saying 'nice job"!' and such, or even praise. I stopped going to the writer's cafe for a while because I saw no point in the routine exchange of reviews (at first I thought it polite to return every review, but it is a waste of time for me as well as the one who receives it - I demand a right not to review if I have nothing to say!) The system of points in review has become useless (I myself don't even give less than 90 so I'm not a b***h and don't prevent anyone from getting the 'thingy' - it's stupid, I know). How about we start a group with one sole principle - blunt honesty? I think it would help everyone.

[Elise Anton]

Thanks for joining the discussion Archos. Sadly, most have read but held back on offering opinion. Which proves my theory I guess... How is a creative environment to flourish when everyone holds back, is afraid to speak honestly and places little value in others' opinions? We end up picking and choosing so as to offer up as much honesty as we can... mindful always that even the slightest criticism may be construed as something other than an honest 'opinion'. I agree, a lot has to do with the points system. It forces you to give at times undeserved merit...

[Archos]

I think it has a lot to do with motivation. In a way, the reviews, especially the positive ones, provide a considerable amount of satisfaction. And it kind of happened, that people post their work to receive positive reviews, not useful feedback (when the reviews are bad, we see it as a failure). I guess it's easier when everyone silently agrees to be a part of this giant illusion (but most of us are aware that all the 'love it'-s don't mean anything). This situation gave rise to the review fishermen, too (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about)

[Elise Anton]

Yeah. You are spot on. Sadly. My very first review on here (before I understood the system) I was going to be honest and give a detailed and 'justified' critique. That's when I noticed the points system stops at 80. Got me investigating the entire process. You calling it an illusion is correct. I never posted that review. I couldn't.

[Archos]

Wait what do you mean it stops at 80?

[Elise Anton]

When you click on the points thingy, the drop down coices show 100, 90, 80. Now you can probably type zero in there - not sure, haven't tried it - but it's EASY to just click on one of the three offered options rather than the lengthier proces of actually entering another % (assuming again you can?) Also, I just got the 'Top Reviewer Award'. To earn this :

You've given 100+ reviews
Your overall review rating is 95% or higher
My Status:
I've Earned this Badge

So good luck getting this badge if your 'overall' rating was below "95% or higher"...

[Archos]

That is ridiculous. I understand that whoever runs this page wants to have as much activity as is possible, but then it is pointless. It is also funny how easily we get tricked by this stuff.

[cloud]

I don't remember ever seeing a drop down list with those numbers.

[Elise Anton]

Yeah. There's a thing called 'data collection'... So my sons say... There's also a 'theory' about the general dumbing down of the population... Somewhere in some lab, these reviews are getting read and hands are being rubbed in glee - that's just the cynic in me of course...

[cloud]

Makes me wonder if that translates into money for the owner somehow?

[Archos]

The list shows after double clicking on the field where you write the percentage.

Yeah, the dumbing down of the population's probably happening, but I don't think it is intentional and controlled. I see it as the outcome of our striving for comfort and entertainment.

[Archos]

I think that activity on this page, as with all webs, does mean more money for whoever runs it. More activity, more people see the page - more money for adverts.

[Elise Anton]

You betcha. Always about the money. 'Free' sites are never free. You just 'pay' in different currency. Having two techie sons opens your eyes to many things lol.

[richy]

A group is being started "public society with secrets".

[Archos]

Sounds interesting. Could you give me a link? I couldn't find it

[richy]

Didn't make it yet. Personally I want Elise to run it.

[Elise Anton]

Really? Have you guys thought it through? I need to think it through lol. Can we not ALL run it? I have no clue as to how these groups work.

[Archos]

It would be really easy to leave all the responsibility to you :D You are the one who dared to speak up on the issue. But whatever support I'll be able to provide, I will provide.

[Elise Anton]

Haha, I expected that. I am responsible for this mess I have to clean it up now lol. Off we go then. Only (sorry richy) I may come up with another name? I will think of this, sitting on a hard clinic waiting-area chair... Better than thumbing through yachting magazines or back issues of House and Garden...

[richy]

you know I'm going to support. It would be nice to have a place where we subject our writing to a "chopping block". A place where we can post a writings of ours and defend our reasoning behind it and see faults we as egotists by trade can easily over look. Ohh how amazing it would feel to receive a good review from someone other than a robot or better yet a bad review. I can say "f**k you" to by creating something even greater the next go around. If stefano tells me My work needs to be more memorable again I'm going to cyber bully him! jk

[Elise Anton]

Ah Stefano. If I didn't love him so much I might join you... Heed his words is all I can say.

[Stefano Segnan]

What can I offer to this discussion, but my experience? You already know my position regarding poetry and mediocrity. It is not easy to remain true to yourself when there is a positive-inciting atmosphere in this community. I have tried countless times to explain to someone my position on how poetry should be. As you may already know, since the standard of poetry is almost non-existent (in my opinion), my words are mostly met with stern opposition. It is easier to lower the standard than to increase it.

I know much about my craft, and even more so about poetry/prose-poetry in general. As someone that read poetry in four different languages, and wrote around four hundred poems - in all kind of forms, styles, structures, rhythms, including lyrics for songs - in those languages, I do think I have a certain experience. If I read now my first collection of writings I only see experimentations, something raw and undefined, but definitely not poems. They are utmost bullshit. If I read my second collection I would say:"Definitely an improvement, but still bullshit". As if the first rocket reached space...

I did not have the opportunity to have my works published online, so I never head guidelines or insights from other people. There are many perks in being an autodidact.
However, I am sure if I received prise for those kind of poems I would probably feel hollow inside. To trolls and bullies I would feel indifferent.
A constructive review is always welcome and those are mostly obvious. Fortunately, my experience with this community in regards to my writing has been mostly positive/honest. There are those who like it (and we discuss it more in the inbox), those that love some parts, and those that have something they dislike.

I am also aware that not everybody is capable of doing a constructive critique. There are those that do not know how to do a proper review (again, something you don't learn in one day) and simply write a few lines "I like it" or "I enjoyed it". You cannot blame them for this prise, but most of the times you can spot the difference between them and those that give empty prise.

I agree that the general standard of writing is low and the general standard of criticism is even lower. But this is an obvious result when myriads of people try to do the same thing and almost none of them have experience whatsoever. Since they are the majority they can set the standard they want.

p.s. Thank you for calling me a poet, for I never considered myself one (:

[Elise Anton]

Thanks Stefano, I hoped you would join this discussion. I admire you greatly you know this, so I won't repeat myself. You are one of the few people who are not 'afraid' to voice an honest opinion, that's what drew me to you and your work. And thanks for NOT calling me a poet, I took it on the chin and reading through your eyes, yeah, I conceded lol.

My real 'issue' if you want to attach a label to it is that young writers cannot possibly grow and perfect their craft if they are 'protected' and encouraged to remain stationary by a stream of positivity and feel-good commentary. I understand how one cannot offer up 'critical' judgement if one is also another relatively new on this path. Those few who are farther along however should HELP these younger/new writers by fostering an environment of excellence and the 'welcoming' of constructive criticism. Sadly, I sense an element of fear in speaking one's mind and that's what prompted me to write this piece. Experience can only be gained in a 'free' society. Both writers and critics can only better themselves if there is a constant striving for this experience.

Thanks for popping by and offering your candid opinion :)

[Stefano Segnan]

Your words are duly noted. You cannot help those that do not want help. Methinks that the greatest and most constructive criticism one can have, comes from oneself, but this is just an opinion from an autodidact.
Those that want to hear mere ego-fueling reviews are are those that are lazy to embark on a pleasant journey of hardships. Writing is but a fleeting phase in their lives. Those that do want to improve will dedicate their time to read, analyze, research, imagine and experiment. They are a rarity. You know the saying: when the student is ready a teacher will appear? For these reasons, I am not bothered much if the desire of writers is ego-fueling and not improvement. Those that want it, will find it.

[Elise Anton]

As always, your insights are spot on. I help a few behind the scenes as I am sure you do. I likewise will not involve myself with people seeking self-promotion or ego gratification...

[Elise Anton]

http://www.writerscafe.org/writing/HouseofRelics/1730587/

Go read and weep dear friend.

[Stefano Segnan]

Nah, I prefer weeping on inspiring music or inspiring moments in movies.

[richy]

I have seriously come to admire you! You piss me off sometimes and "i" mean that In the best way. You see the limitations I thought only I could see and comment on them every time. It's become a motivation to me. The only thing I know about my writing Is that it is mine. (also I'm a creative genius) I beg that you continue to bully me so that I might learn more about this "thing" i can't help but do. (Insert praise for this post)

[Elise Anton]

A bucket full of praise for your creative genius :) Now I'm going to have a look at your new one. Only caught a glimpse before I had to step out. Thanks richy, I admire YOU. You get it.

[Davidgeo]

Maybe she should make the font bigger

[Elise Anton]

HUH? That's the biggest I am allowed to do. Suffice?

[Davidgeo]

You could make the font a different color maybe?

[Elise Anton]

Pink? I wrote a poem in pink earlier. I don't think anyone noticed it. Maybe red? Open to suggestions.

[Davidgeo]

If you change the font size or the font color I will shoe you in the nuts. Richy can better inform you as to why I left the font size comment, Richy and I share a love of font length... sometimes width. Mostly length though.

[Elise Anton]

Oh you guys and your length and width... Who's got the virtual ruler out? Shoe away. I am sorely tempted to go with a lovely shade of lavender. Or a calming green?

[Davidgeo]

I have very large feet

[Davidgeo]

black is good color for text

[Elise Anton]

So do clowns... sorry, you walked into that one. Black rocks. BTW.

[richy]

AHaHA bud We have such strong feelings over font size and

[richy]

and actually thats it

[Davidgeo]

My strong feelings extend far beyond font size my friend....

[richy]

No please don't tell me... YOU LOVE ITALICS TOOOOOOO

[richy]

All honesty I like you jizzy. I blocked you for a while because I was new to the site and you were saying some s**t about dead animals on one of my poems. But to gods sake you don't need to break every young persons heart with some rant about how "they only get views because they're profile pic" or that " their poetic voice is dog s**t".You should be praising those writers if they are so bad. It'll make your work seem that much better. We're all just trying to create and you should either help (which is what most of us want) or go f*****g rot in a world where only your brilliant mind exists. From reading your works I can tell you have a grasp on poetry far beyond me and any other "poet" who writes on this site so why not f*****g help us out?

[Elise Anton]

Good words richy. I agree that jizzy has a lot to offer.

[Davidgeo]

There is a threshold.... and there is the in between. I watched a south park episode once "Don't be fooled by all my money I still like to eat tacos honey" Creativity is not as predominate as you like to believe.

[Davidgeo]

In fact it's f*****g rare

[richy]

There are levels just like anything else. You don't have to s**t on people who weren't fortunate enough to have the gift or not be on a higher level. Just let them play on their level and you play on yours.

[Davidgeo]

How about you take your own advice and let me do my f*****g thing my own f*****g way.... I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right.

[richy]

Your commenting on my post. If that's how you wanna be than go back to your " my writing" tab

[Davidgeo]

I was initially and now I'm commenting on your responses... you understand conversations can evolve and this is not your house, you can't just say "my toys!! go home!!". Just block me if you can't deal with it. I don't really like you and I deal with it this way... you're not me... just block.

[Elise Anton]

I agree with both of you on this one. Yes there are levels richy... Most of us aspire to reach the heady heights of others. We read something and think "Now why couldn't I have come up with that?" I think this all the time.

I believe what jizzy is relaying is what happens from that point on. If enough people praise the level you're on, then you are quite content to stay there, basking in your 'greatness'. If someone dares challenge this greatness, you (and I mean you as in a general you) and whoever else jumps on the bandwagon of protest. They (jizzy and whoever) can't be right see, because so many others say otherwise. This reaction disallows growth however...

If you acknowledge/accept the criticism and see it for the 'unbiased' advice it is, you move on, try harder, lose the complacency and then you grow... another level... (Kind of the you, me, Stefano thing we have going atm)

Jizzy is brash, and in your face. I do however think that in most situations, he means well. Misinterpretation/assumption (so many people hating the 'intruder') combined with 'protest' (look how many people support my greatness) results in sand-pit fights like this one.

You both agree, yet cannot express/share this agreement. This is what fascinates me.

[richy]

I agreed with him when I read his post further down. It was the reason I unblocked him and left a playful comment on his poem. If you haven't read it I wrote "f**k this poem. Use bigger font" I assumed he would get it. The joke seemed right up his alley. Either way we can stop each other from doing a thing so now seems as good a time as any to end this thread.

[Davidgeo]

I did get it, it was clearly a play on one of reviews somewhere. Ever hear the saying "If I'm the only one laughing, I win".....? It's a good one. I'm not here for the same reasons as you are Richy. I do not value the same things as you do here

[Elise Anton]

I missed that bit richy... Now I get where all this font stuff came from lol. Different reasons/values sure, jizzy, otherwiese we'd be clones... End it nicely? I like nice especially from two such as you. One CAN agree to disagree?

[Chris]

I'm a bit "winded"at the moment but I'ld like discussing this "write". At the moment I'm dealing with a bit of snow... so I'll drop by later.

Chris

[Elise Anton]

Oh for some snow! We are slowly being roasted here atm. Talk later, sure.